• Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing

    From Barrk@3:770/3 to All on Wed Mar 17 01:00:48 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 15 Mar 2021 20:41:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 2021-03-15, Barrk <Barrk@k9t8.net> wrote:

    The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
    it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
    but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
    giants, designed to only serve their purposes.

    Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
    shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
    management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
    in front of them and they'll strike every time.

    Recommended reading:

    https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

    Very very unfortunately, he's right about the trend.

    (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.

    And Joe Consumer will PAY to get fucked over.

    Oooh !!! Shiny !

    (50 points if you know where that last phrase came from :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to Barrk on Wed Mar 17 08:50:47 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Barrk wrote:

    On 15 Mar 2021 20:41:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 2021-03-15, Barrk <Barrk@k9t8.net> wrote:

    The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
    it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
    but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
    giants, designed to only serve their purposes.

    Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
    shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
    management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
    in front of them and they'll strike every time.

    Recommended reading:

    https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

    Very very unfortunately, he's right about the trend.

    (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.

    And Joe Consumer will PAY to get fucked over.

    Oooh !!! Shiny !

    (50 points if you know where that last phrase came from :-)

    It is like 50-60 years disenlightment - what do you expect.
    From personal experience with people Enlightment is very sophisticated
    process and must start early in someones life and must have the specific
    social context to work.
    If everybody is in youtube and facebook you can not explain easily why it is not good to the avg. Joe.
    It starts in the family, in the kindergarden, in school and then it is
    almost already too late.
    You can imagine how many generations were lost in these 50-60y and most important what damage was done to all of the humanity.
    I see idiocracy multiply and intelligence disappear. Very unfortunate!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Barrk on Wed Mar 17 16:02:02 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-17, Barrk <Barrk@k9t8.net> wrote:

    On 15 Mar 2021 20:41:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 2021-03-15, Barrk <Barrk@k9t8.net> wrote:

    The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
    it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
    but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
    giants, designed to only serve their purposes.

    Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
    shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
    management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
    in front of them and they'll strike every time.

    Recommended reading:

    https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

    Very very unfortunately, he's right about the trend.

    (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.

    And Joe Consumer will PAY to get fucked over.

    Leonard: Oh, screw the roommate agreement.

    Sheldon: No! You don't screw the roommate agreement.
    The roommate agreement screws _you_!

    Oooh !!! Shiny !

    (50 points if you know where that last phrase came from :-)

    I don't know, but I use it a lot.

    "I am Homer of Borg. Resistance is futile.
    You will be... mmmm, donut!"

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Byker@3:770/3 to Barrk on Wed Mar 17 15:49:00 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    "Barrk" wrote in message news:40335glus6bsnn2rqe81fi8bc8sevso883@4ax.com...

    On 15 Mar 2021 20:41:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    Recommended reading:

    https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

    Very very unfortunately, he's right about the trend.

    (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.

    Elon Musk's warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIHhl6HLgp0

    Last chance, people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Osn1gMNtw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Byker@3:770/3 to Deloptes on Wed Mar 17 15:50:52 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    "Deloptes" wrote in message news:s2sccn$h6e$1@dont-email.me...

    It is like 50-60 years disenlightment - what do you expect.
    From personal experience with people Enlightment is very sophisticated process and must start early in someones life and must have the specific social context to work.
    If everybody is in youtube and facebook you can not explain easily why it
    is not good to the avg. Joe.
    It starts in the family, in the kindergarden, in school and then it is
    almost already too late.
    You can imagine how many generations were lost in these 50-60y and most important what damage was done to all of the humanity.
    I see idiocracy multiply and intelligence disappear. Very unfortunate!

    "Idiocracy" (2006) is already alive and well:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Byker on Wed Mar 17 22:19:54 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-17, Byker <byker@do~rag.net> wrote:

    "Barrk" wrote in message news:40335glus6bsnn2rqe81fi8bc8sevso883@4ax.com...

    On 15 Mar 2021 20:41:33 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    Recommended reading:

    https://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html

    Very very unfortunately, he's right about the trend.

    (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.

    Elon Musk's warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIHhl6HLgp0

    Last chance, people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-Osn1gMNtw

    Don't worry, buy a Tesla. It will take care of you.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to Byker on Thu Mar 18 03:26:55 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Byker wrote:

    "Idiocracy" (2006) is already alive and well:

    it is slowly turning into "the new normal", however there were moments in history that it was not the case

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Barrk on Thu Mar 18 08:07:38 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:00:48 -0400
    Barrk <Barrk@k9t8.net> wrote:

    (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.

    It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it
    is far from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until *this* fear becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will first become possible and then necessary to bribe them".

    Right now and for all of history to date the exploitation of people
    has been done by *people*, technology is simply another tool in the box of those who like to exploit and control and it is one that serves *them* very well. However technology is a *tool* and like all tools the result of using
    it depends on the intent and skill of the user and not the nature of the
    tool. For example you could use nuclear explosives to sculpt artwork onto
    dead planetoids or you could use them to threaten nations and influence policies.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mayayana@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Thu Mar 18 09:35:48 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote

    | > The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
    | > it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
    | > but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
    | > giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
    |
    | Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
    | shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
    | management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
    | in front of them and they'll strike every time.

    It's easy to express contempt for non-tech people,
    but it's mainly the techies who are hypnotized by video
    games. They're mainly the people who got suckered into
    "invitations" to gmail. They're the ones pushing the
    switch to Chrome, using their phones to pay for things,
    supporting unregulated exploitation of workers through
    Uber and Lyft, shopping via Amazon, buying crap food
    in unrecycled containers via GrubHub or DoorDash...
    You might not be a Facebookie, but if you live by your
    phone then you're exploited by either Google or Apple...
    plus dataminers. And you're cultivating a lifestyle
    mediated by middlemen.

    Why? Because tech hipsters thought it was "cool".
    Lately there's talk of a COVID vaccine cert that will
    require a cellphone. Why do we now just assume that
    life happens on a cellphone? Instead of selling everyone
    a PC, how about putting down your phone.

    There's no reason the general public needs to want
    to do programming, video editing, or other things done
    on computers. What they need is privacy law. It's just
    like everything else. You don't get safe food by teaching
    nutrition or safe cars by turning everyone into a mechanic.
    You get there with regulation, so that everyone doesn't
    need to be an expert.

    On the bright side, Europe has been more advanced than
    the US on that score, and Biden seems to be hiring people
    who want to break up the tech monopolies. We might get
    there. In the meantime, do you watch junk TV? Do you
    eat fast food or junk food, or drink sodas? Have you
    been suickered into buying designer water? Do you play video
    games while being over 16 years old? If so then look in the
    mirror to see your trout. There's no super-mind plotting
    control over you. There are just confused, power-hungry,
    driven people like Bezos and Gates and Jobs and Cook and
    Schmidt. And there are their markets. Same thing. You
    should regard it as a warning sign when you decide that
    somehow you're the only person who thinks for themselves.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Mar 18 19:33:49 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:00:48 -0400
    Barrk <Barrk@k9t8.net> wrote:

    (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.

    It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it
    is far from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until *this* fear becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will first become possible and then necessary to bribe them".

    Right now and for all of history to date the exploitation of people
    has been done by *people*, technology is simply another tool in the box of those who like to exploit and control and it is one that serves *them* very well. However technology is a *tool* and like all tools the result of using it depends on the intent and skill of the user and not the nature of the tool. For example you could use nuclear explosives to sculpt artwork onto dead planetoids or you could use them to threaten nations and influence policies.

    Well said! Using the word "technology" instead of a more appropriate
    phrase like "the lords of technology" is one more example of convenience trumping accuracy.

    A power so great it can only be used for good or evil!
    -- Firesign Theatre

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Mayayana on Thu Mar 18 19:33:49 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-18, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

    "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote

    The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
    it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
    but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
    giants, designed to only serve their purposes.

    Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
    shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
    management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
    in front of them and they'll strike every time.

    It's easy to express contempt for non-tech people,
    but it's mainly the techies who are hypnotized by video
    games. They're mainly the people who got suckered into
    "invitations" to gmail. They're the ones pushing the
    switch to Chrome, using their phones to pay for things,
    supporting unregulated exploitation of workers through
    Uber and Lyft, shopping via Amazon, buying crap food
    in unrecycled containers via GrubHub or DoorDash...

    I do none of these things, yet I consider myself a techie.
    Perhaps we should replace "techies" with a more appropriate
    word, like "technophiles". There are lots of techies who
    are not hypnotized.

    You might not be a Facebookie, but if you live by your
    phone then you're exploited by either Google or Apple...
    plus dataminers. And you're cultivating a lifestyle
    mediated by middlemen.

    Hear, hear.

    Why? Because tech hipsters thought it was "cool".
    Lately there's talk of a COVID vaccine cert that will
    require a cellphone. Why do we now just assume that
    life happens on a cellphone? Instead of selling everyone
    a PC, how about putting down your phone.

    From time to time, the term "digital divide" comes up.
    Some people are pushing to widen this divide (often while
    shedding crocodile tears about discrimination), because
    they are personally benefiting from it.

    <snip>

    Do you play video games while being over 16 years old?

    I do fire up Portal from time to time - but only as a
    diversion (one of many), not to validate my existence.

    If so then look in the mirror to see your trout. There's
    no super-mind plotting control over you. There are just
    confused, power-hungry, driven people like Bezos and Gates
    and Jobs and Cook and Schmidt.

    I wouldn't apply the word "confused" to these people.
    They know exactly what they're doing, and their plotting
    is more like China's long-term plans for conquest than
    your typical company's obsession with quarterly dividends.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to Mayayana on Thu Mar 18 20:43:41 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Mayayana wrote:

    "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote

    | > The only hope for General-Purpose Computing is to make
    | > it somehow "cool". Otherwise there will soon be nothing
    | > but Specialty computers, all produced/owned by the tech
    | > giants, designed to only serve their purposes.
    |
    | Unfortunately, J. Random Luser is easily hypnotized by
    | shiny things. I've heard this referred to as "trout
    | management": dangle something shiny with a hook in it
    | in front of them and they'll strike every time.

    It's easy to express contempt for non-tech people,
    but it's mainly the techies who are hypnotized by video
    games. They're mainly the people who got suckered into
    "invitations" to gmail. They're the ones pushing the
    switch to Chrome, using their phones to pay for things,
    supporting unregulated exploitation of workers through
    Uber and Lyft, shopping via Amazon, buying crap food
    in unrecycled containers via GrubHub or DoorDash...
    You might not be a Facebookie, but if you live by your
    phone then you're exploited by either Google or Apple...
    plus dataminers. And you're cultivating a lifestyle
    mediated by middlemen.


    You are speaking from my heart, respect!

    Why? Because tech hipsters thought it was "cool".
    Lately there's talk of a COVID vaccine cert that will
    require a cellphone. Why do we now just assume that
    life happens on a cellphone? Instead of selling everyone
    a PC, how about putting down your phone.


    applause!

    There's no reason the general public needs to want
    to do programming, video editing, or other things done
    on computers. What they need is privacy law. It's just
    like everything else. You don't get safe food by teaching
    nutrition or safe cars by turning everyone into a mechanic.
    You get there with regulation, so that everyone doesn't
    need to be an expert.

    On the bright side, Europe has been more advanced than
    the US on that score, and Biden seems to be hiring people
    who want to break up the tech monopolies. We might get

    Not sure if you are right here.

    there. In the meantime, do you watch junk TV? Do you
    eat fast food or junk food, or drink sodas? Have you
    been suickered into buying designer water? Do you play video
    games while being over 16 years old? If so then look in the
    mirror to see your trout. There's no super-mind plotting
    control over you. There are just confused, power-hungry,
    driven people like Bezos and Gates and Jobs and Cook and
    Schmidt. And there are their markets. Same thing. You
    should regard it as a warning sign when you decide that
    somehow you're the only person who thinks for themselves.

    As I can answer all these questions with, NO, I thank you that you make me
    feel I am not the only one on this planet, who experience the same.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Thu Mar 18 20:46:14 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it
    is far from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until
    *this* fear becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will
    first become possible and then necessary to bribe them".

    Right now and for all of history to date the exploitation of people
    has been done by *people*, technology is simply another tool in the box of those who like to exploit and control and it is one that serves *them*
    very well. However technology is a *tool* and like all tools the result of using it depends on the intent and skill of the user and not the nature of the tool. For example you could use nuclear explosives to sculpt artwork
    onto dead planetoids or you could use them to threaten nations and
    influence policies.

    This does not contradict Mayayanas propositions. It completes them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Byker@3:770/3 to Barrk on Thu Mar 18 15:11:34 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    "Ahem A Rivet's Shot" wrote in message news:20210318080738.1e9ba0c911158eef18558070@eircom.net...

    On Wed, 17 Mar 2021 01:00:48 -0400
    Barrk <Barrk@k9t8.net> wrote:

    (Near) Future-tech will not SERVE you, only EXPLOIT you.

    It is amazing how many people seem to think this is a new fear, it is far from being so - and it has never been true and won't be until *this* fear becomes true "As machines become more intelligent it will first become possible and then necessary to bribe them".

    Millennials and their offspring are throwing away their futures by venting their Leftist spleens on Facebook and Twitter ("The Internet Ruined My
    Life," etc.). Anything they post on the Web might as well be carved in
    stone. Although I don't like talking heads, this old boy has some good
    points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eHKkxcQYU4

    Clueless Millennials and GenZ have no idea of what's coming:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WnLR3CESeY

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxPyaBhPWAQ

    Most post-Baby Boomers haven't a clue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tn4P7IBqoQ

    Alt-Left, Antifa, and their supporters/sympathizers have forfeited their futures as their names, faces, and family information are gathered and
    stored in Deep State computers, listing them as "subversive", and "unpatriotic". Years from now they'll be wondering why they're not being accepted at big-name, high-dollar universities despite 4.0 GPAs, or why the only jobs they can find are dead-end, minimum-wage service jobs, or why relatives are suddenly getting their security clearances revoked. All their anti-America, pro-socialism Facebook and YouTube posts will be coming back
    to bite them ten, twenty, or forty years from now.

    America can't survive these imbeciles -- So sad to see America be destroyed
    by the stupid: http://tinyurl.com/p9hs53z http://fortune.com/2015/03/10/american-millennials-are-among-the-worlds-least-skilled/

    What's YOUR social credit score? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP321Miy7zQ

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to Mayayana on Thu Mar 18 18:19:40 2021
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: Mayayana to Charlie Gibbs on Thu Mar 18 2021 09:35 am

    On the bright side, Europe has been more advanced than
    the US on that score, and Biden seems to be hiring people
    who want to break up the tech monopolies. We might get
    there. In the meantime, do you watch junk TV? Do you
    eat fast food or junk food, or drink sodas? Have you
    been suickered into buying designer water? Do you play video
    games while being over 16 years old? If so then look in the
    mirror to see your trout. There's no super-mind plotting
    control over you. There are just confused, power-hungry,
    driven people like Bezos and Gates and Jobs and Cook and
    Schmidt. And there are their markets. Same thing. You
    should regard it as a warning sign when you decide that
    somehow you're the only person who thinks for themselves.

    I am older than 16 years old, I happen to play games occasionally, and I don't really get what is the problem I should be finding in the mirror. I suppose the copy of Rogue I just compiled for OpenBSD is doing a hell of a lot of data mining?

    By the way, if you have a car, you are usually expected to know how to use it, including basic maintenance. It is a mistake to think you need to be an expert in a field to wade that field somewhat safely. You need to know _enough_, and I don't think this criteria is bypassable via law enforcing. Making cars safe by law only goes so far: if you put an idiot behind the steering wheel, he will cause trouble.

    Sticking to IT: spamming, phishing and scamming is illegal, yet we still get tons of it. How do we defeat it? Teaching people how to deal with it.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to Richard Falken on Fri Mar 19 01:33:02 2021
    Richard Falken wrote:

    I am older than 16 years old, I happen to play games occasionally, and I don't really get what is the problem I should be finding in the mirror.

    I think the word you are looking for is infantile adj.
    I play with our children for example or I play guitar (but there is no much time you know)
    Raise children and grow up (this is live all about).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mayayana@3:770/3 to Richard Falken on Thu Mar 18 22:55:24 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    "Richard Falken" <nospam.Richard.Falken@f1.n770.z7314.fidonet.org> wrote

    | By the way, if you have a car, you are usually expected to know how to use it,
    | including basic maintenance.

    No. Only in your role as consumer. No one is expected
    to understand car mechanics. Nor is a home owner expected
    to understand home repair. The idea is that you should be
    able to buy a car without it being faulty. You should be able
    to buy food that's not tainted... A toaster that's not at risk
    of catching on fire. Those regulations are mostly fairly
    recent. Building codes and food quality standards are relatively
    recent. We need the same for computing and digital data
    generally. No one should have to understand HTML, script,
    cookies, and so on to just load a webpage and have a reasonable
    expectation that Google isn't spying on them. The Internet
    was actually designed for that. Cookies were designed to be
    only first party. Script was intended only to provide some
    degree of interactive ability.

    As it is now, the spying and the usurping of private rights
    is mostly invisible. People don't understand Google's spying.
    They don't understand Microsoft has stolen their car and
    parked a taxi in their driveway. They don't understand their
    phone is a tracking collar infested with datamining apps.
    There's no excuse for not regulating these things.

    You're never going to teach every computer and phone
    user how to handle spam and phishing. Most people I know
    turn on their computer, cross their fingers, do what they
    need to, then turn it off. Awhile back I was trying to help
    a woman who complained about an error message. "What
    did the message say?" "I don't know. I just click buttons
    until I find one it likes." And why not? How is anyone supposed
    to make sense of messages talking about "writing to illegal
    memory" or "outdated encryption" errors? The fault there is with
    the software developer, not the enduser.

    We could easily pass basic laws:

    * If you buy software you get full copyright rights, just
    as with a book, which means you can do anything with it
    except make copies. And the author can't sneak into your
    house to change the software or disable it. And they can't
    force you to rent the software.

    * If you visit a webpage, that site has no right to sell your
    data to outsiders without your permission.

    * Apps have no right to ask for data access they don't need
    to function. And they have no right to call home.

    * Your TV has no right to spy on you, whether it's Comcast
    or Samsung doing it.

    Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
    reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
    invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
    the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
    understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
    public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.

    You can pretend that's reality in Linuxville and protest that
    people should be able to compile software if they want to
    use it. But in that case you'll be talking to yourself. And you
    won't popularize general computing. How do
    you suppose all those partially socialized geeks in Linuxville
    are still alive when they don't even know how to feed themselves?
    Because the FDA regulates what's allowed to go into Pepsi
    and candy bars. We have basic, civilized laws that say you
    can't make a candy bar out of plaster of paris or make Pepsi
    with DDT and motor oil. No one needs to understand nutrition
    in order to survive reasonably well despite drinking soda. They
    can write code all day, play video games all night, and never
    even learn how to pilot a human body. Because regulation
    protects them.

    You may be able to fix your car, house and dinner. I don't
    know. But I'm sure there are things in life that you depend on
    without understanding how they work. And your confidence
    using those things probably depends on regulation.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to Mayayana on Fri Mar 19 08:38:31 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Mayayana wrote:

    You may be able to fix your car, house and dinner. I don't
    know. But I'm sure there are things in life that you depend on
    without understanding how they work. And your confidence
    using those things probably depends on regulation.

    The absurdity of this all is the "precedence" in the US law. So you can make and sell a toy or airplane that would fail. People would die and only after this they will regulate.
    I am not for regulations, but as you point out in many cases they are
    required, so that our lives are endangered.
    Recently the EU introduced a low "the right to repair". I doubt that it will have effect, because even if I knew how to repair my broken car,
    manufactures make special tools that are so expensive that only the car
    repair shop can afford. Some tools are available only for licensed shops.
    This is pure pornography

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Mayayana on Fri Mar 19 08:53:51 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:55:24 -0400
    "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:



    Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
    reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
    the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
    understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
    public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.


    No. There are now people and businesses rich enough to buy entire
    governments, or at least, political parties. That's the problem.

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Joe on Fri Mar 19 09:47:10 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 19/03/2021 08:53, Joe wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Mar 2021 22:55:24 -0400
    "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:



    Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
    reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
    invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
    the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
    understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
    public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.


    No. There are now people and businesses rich enough to buy entire governments, or at least, political parties. That's the problem.

    s/to buy entire/have bought all/g



    --
    A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
    its shoes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to Mayayana on Fri Mar 19 07:39:03 2021
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: Mayayana to Richard Falken on Thu Mar 18 2021 10:55 pm

    No. Only in your role as consumer. No one is expected
    to understand car mechanics. Nor is a home owner expected

    Car mechanics are included in the driving license exam.

    Then again I don't think you are supposed to be an expert when wading through an specific field.

    There is a lot of _bad stuff_ being placed in regulated products. Regulation is not a substitute for education. I sell vitamins
    and mineral supplements that are law compliant, but if you are not aware of your personal circumpstances you can make a mess
    of yourself consuming them. It is your responsibility to known if you have blood pressure problems or kidney issues and which
    stuff can affect you negatively. You don't need to be a vitamin expert, you need the common sense pointers.

    I also happen to be an Engineer and I am not impressed with the local Edification Technnical Code. When I was in college, the
    guy teaching structure safety gave us a red marker and told us to cross down half of it because the code was unsuitable for
    buildings you didn't intend to collapse. Mostly typos and such, but those were turned into law - actually, pseudolaw, since
    it has been enacted by non-elected officials from a "deep state" suboffice. What this means is that if you hire any of the
    Engineers that got out of that class for building something, you are not relying on the regulations that mandate that buildings
    must not collapse, you are relying in their ability to design something that won't collapse.

    To this day our consumer-grade building methods are highly appreciated, by the way.

    The problem I see when regulation is priorized over education is that you end up with regulations that fall short and don't
    mitigate the thick of the problem but then you don't have a population capable of sorting the issues out. It is usually because
    the goal of the people making the regulations is more interested in making personal profit themselves than anything else.

    Your argument is that the average consumer of IT is not a technical expert and must be protected via regulation. Let's assume
    for a moment that the only way to use certain technology safely is by having a minimum of proficency with it. What your
    argument looks like is: "The average consumer of $technology does not meet the minimum level of proficency for safe use,
    therefore we must let a regulatory organism protect them."

    This is exactly like saying: "The average consumer of cars does not meet the minimum level of proficency for safe use,
    therefore we must let a regulatory organism protect them." My opinion is that if somebody is not able to drive a car safely, he
    should not be driving a car. He should be hiring somebody who knows how to drive a car or he should learn how to drive.

    What he should not be doing is purchasing a car with an institutional Official Safety Seal and thinking it is ok to drive a car
    without having a clue about car controls. _Which is why I often find in lots of fields_ and is exactly what happens when you
    skip educating people. "Oh, see, this thing is CE marked so it is safe to use." No, ma'am, no necessarily.

    I think that treating consumers as retards and demmanding them to be pupetted by a third party is troublesome. For one, it
    gives power to the third party doing the pupetteeing, which is most likely not a trustworthy agent. Then, it tells consumers
    that it is ok to be retards because somebody else will take care of their problems (which is lazy and often false).

    I am not an _expert_ regarding all the products and services I consume, but try to know what I use and I certainly don't expect
    somebody else to take better care of me than myself. When I think a real expert is needed I bring one.

    And by the way, I do a lot of my own home repairs and grow a lot of my own food, and need no comittee to tell me sodas suck.
    Besides, I think I should be taking offense because you seem to imply that if you use Unix-like systems you are a junk-food
    sucker with no life experience out of that.



    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to Deloptes on Fri Mar 19 07:58:03 2021
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: Deloptes to Mayayana on Fri Mar 19 2021 08:38 am

    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Mayayana wrote:

    You may be able to fix your car, house and dinner. I don't
    know. But I'm sure there are things in life that you depend on
    without understanding how they work. And your confidence
    using those things probably depends on regulation.

    The absurdity of this all is the "precedence" in the US law. So you can make and sell a toy or airplane that would fail. People would die and only after this they will regulate.
    I am not for regulations, but as you point out in many cases they are required, so that our lives are endangered.
    Recently the EU introduced a low "the right to repair". I doubt that it will have effect, because even if I knew how to repair my broken car, manufactures make special tools that are so expensive that only the car repair shop can afford. Some tools are available only for licensed shops. This is pure pornography

    Regulations have a tendency to be reactive instead of proactive everywhere, not just the US. Politicians are bad at addressing problems regarding fields of expertise they don't dominate, so they only get to address them once the problem is actually impacting people and thus becomes known _to them_.

    Which is why you should do your homework while politicians are struggling to put their paperwork together.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Mayayana@3:770/3 to Joe on Fri Mar 19 09:23:17 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    "Joe" <joe@jretrading.com> wrote |

    | > Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
    | > reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
    | > invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
    | > the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
    | > understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
    | > public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.
    | >
    |
    | No. There are now people and businesses rich enough to buy entire
    | governments, or at least, political parties. That's the problem.
    |

    Ah. Why didn't you say so? So it's hopeless. I guess
    I'll go back to bed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Mayayana on Fri Mar 19 14:28:03 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 19/03/2021 13:23, Mayayana wrote:
    "Joe" <joe@jretrading.com> wrote |

    | > Those are all common sense and common decency. The only
    | > reason they're not illegal is because the crime is frictionless and
    | > invisible, and the operation of it is not widely understood. Even
    | > the US Congress seems to have few people capable of
    | > understanding the stakes. If you think the problem is lack of
    | > public education then you're living in your own private Idaho.
    | >
    |
    | No. There are now people and businesses rich enough to buy entire
    | governments, or at least, political parties. That's the problem.
    |

    Ah. Why didn't you say so? So it's hopeless. I guess
    I'll go back to bed.


    It is not.

    And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
    this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.

    Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
    then you are truly lost

    --
    “Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
    other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    - John K Galbraith

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Richard Falken on Fri Mar 19 14:26:01 2021
    On 18/03/2021 18:58, Richard Falken wrote:
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: Deloptes to Mayayana on Fri Mar 19 2021 08:38 am

    > XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    > XPost: talk.politics.misc
    >
    > Mayayana wrote:
    >
    > > You may be able to fix your car, house and dinner. I don't
    > > know. But I'm sure there are things in life that you depend on
    > > without understanding how they work. And your confidence
    > > using those things probably depends on regulation.
    >
    > The absurdity of this all is the "precedence" in the US law. So you can make
    > and sell a toy or airplane that would fail. People would die and only after
    > this they will regulate.
    > I am not for regulations, but as you point out in many cases they are
    > required, so that our lives are endangered.
    > Recently the EU introduced a low "the right to repair". I doubt that it will
    > have effect, because even if I knew how to repair my broken car,
    > manufactures make special tools that are so expensive that only the car
    > repair shop can afford. Some tools are available only for licensed shops.
    > This is pure pornography

    Regulations have a tendency to be reactive instead of proactive

    Bless!
    everywhere, not
    just the US. Politicians are bad at addressing problems regarding fields of expertise they don't dominate, so they only get to address them once the problem is actually impacting people and thus becomes known _to them_.

    Bless!

    Take climate change. Whole rafts of proactive legislation that does not
    addfess an existing problem that affects people, but a *possible* future
    one that *might* affect people, that in any case does *not* address
    carbon *emissions*, only make profits for 'green' 'renewable' companies
    who are heavily subsidised as well. They cant fail. Except they do all
    the time.

    Legislation is the primary way to market product no one wants or needs,
    by mandating its adoption. And thus obsoleting existing perfectly
    functional product.

    In Europe the EU is pwned by large manufacturers. In the USA the EPA is
    going that way

    In third world countries this level of corruption is de rigeur: You
    simply wont get to operate without bribing the government officials,



    Which is why you should do your homework while politicians are struggling to put their paperwork together.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken



    --
    Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mayayana@3:770/3 to Richard Falken on Fri Mar 19 10:46:11 2021
    "Richard Falken" <nospam.Richard.Falken@f1.n770.z7325.fidonet.org> wrote


    | > No. Only in your role as consumer. No one is expected
    | > to understand car mechanics. Nor is a home owner expected
    |
    | Car mechanics are included in the driving license exam.
    |

    ?? I don't know where you live. I had to drive around
    the block with a cop in the passenger seat, and correctly
    answer 7 of 10 questions like, "What does a hexagon
    shaped sign indicate?"

    | There is a lot of _bad stuff_ being placed in regulated products.
    Regulation is
    | not a substitute for education. I sell vitamins
    | and mineral supplements that are law compliant, but if you are not aware
    of
    | your personal circumpstances you can make a mess
    | of yourself consuming them. It is your responsibility to known if you have
    | blood pressure problems or kidney issues and which
    | stuff can affect you negatively. You don't need to be a vitamin expert,
    you
    | need the common sense pointers.

    That's a great example. You should understand what you're
    taking, but regulations can at least specify the purity of the
    content and ban toxic substances. Though I've read that
    all bets are off when you buy herbal blends. So what do we
    do about that? Herbs are hard to control that way. Still,
    that's no reason to just give up on all regulation.

    |
    | Your argument is that the average consumer of IT is not a technical expert and
    | must be protected via regulation. Let's assume
    | for a moment that the only way to use certain technology safely is by
    having a
    | minimum of proficency with it. What your
    | argument looks like is: "The average consumer of $technology does not meet the
    | minimum level of proficency for safe use,
    | therefore we must let a regulatory organism protect them."
    |
    | This is exactly like saying: "The average consumer of cars does not meet
    the
    | minimum level of proficency for safe use,
    | therefore we must let a regulatory organism protect them." My opinion is
    that
    | if somebody is not able to drive a car safely, he
    | should not be driving a car. He should be hiring somebody who knows how to
    | drive a car or he should learn how to drive.
    |

    That's twisting the topic in various ways. My argument is
    that there needs to be more regulation about what's legal
    for commercial entities in terms of privacy, mickey mouse
    licensing, and so on. You shouldn't be able to sell snake oil
    and you shouldn't be able to spy on people who have a
    reasonable expectation of privacy. It should be illegal for you
    to sell a history of your customers' vitamin usage. In the
    past that wasn't an issue, but with computerization it's become
    an issue.

    The question of whether someone is authorized to use a device
    is different. Are you going to require a license to operate a
    TV or cellphone? In a car you might put others at risk. Not
    knowing that your browser or TV are spying on you is hardly
    a public risk.

    | I think that treating consumers as retards and demmanding them to be
    pupetted
    | by a third party is troublesome. For one, it
    | gives power to the third party doing the pupetteeing, which is most likely not
    | a trustworthy agent.

    I think you're taking too much an engineer's point of
    view. What about gardening? Cooking? You want
    people to be forced to have the kind of expertise you
    have, but that's a very abstruse kind of expertise. You're
    looking at it as a techie. If that makes sense then why
    can't a florist refuse to sell you a rose bush unless you
    can show that you know how to take care of it? That
    gets silly very quickly.

    I'm not saying anything about the customer in this
    discussion. I'm just saying you shouldn't be allowed
    to sell vitamin C pills made out of chalk. That's all.
    The customers' ignorance should not be exploitable.

    | And by the way, I do a lot of my own home repairs and grow a lot of my own
    | food, and need no comittee to tell me sodas suck.
    | Besides, I think I should be taking offense because you seem to imply that
    if
    | you use Unix-like systems you are a junk-food
    | sucker with no life experience out of that.
    |

    :) Not necessarily. But there is a notable correlation.
    I remember seeing a photo of a Google conference table
    one time -- sodas in front of all and a bowl of candy
    bars in the middle. The Big Bang TV show works because
    there's a lot of truth in it. A high percentage of engineer types
    have a hard time with basic life.

    I once knew an Apple
    engineer who wired his own wall light by running lamp
    cord from the back of an outlet. Unsafe. Illegal. But he
    figured he was a brilliant egineer, so he knew what he
    was doing. He also had a tantrum about caulking his
    pedestal sink. He was afraid the bowl would fall off the
    pedestal if it were not caulked! There was no reasoning
    with him. He was too brilliant for that.
    The same man told me his dream was to have
    a cellphone that would tell him what to do, so he wouldn't
    have to decide. And now he has his dream.

    I actually had an experience of what I'm talking about
    just an hour ago. The woman I live with emailed something
    about a NYT article on how creepy facial recognition is
    becoming:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/03/18/magazine/facial-recognition-clearview-ai.html

    The link was odd. It wasn't a full URL. It was clipped,
    followed by a base-64 string, but with no "?". I ran
    the base-64 through my converter. It turned out she
    had forwarded an email from NYT. If I'd clicked the link
    it would have sent them her userID and email address,
    then sent me on to the article. I've seen similar links that
    have peoples' name and home address encoded. The average
    person has no chance of realizing this is happening, nor
    of understanding how to recognize it. The trouble is that
    the ease and scale of this tracking has become a problem
    with computerization.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Mayayana on Fri Mar 19 16:33:54 2021
    On 2021-03-19, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

    ?? I don't know where you live. I had to drive around
    the block with a cop in the passenger seat, and correctly
    answer 7 of 10 questions like, "What does a hexagon
    shaped sign indicate?"

    Dunno. I do know what an octagon-shaped sign indicates... <g,d&r>

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | "Some of you may die,
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | but it's a sacrifice
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | I'm willing to make."
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lord Farquaad (Shrek)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Fri Mar 19 18:01:01 2021
    On 19/03/2021 16:33, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2021-03-19, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

    ?? I don't know where you live. I had to drive around
    the block with a cop in the passenger seat, and correctly
    answer 7 of 10 questions like, "What does a hexagon
    shaped sign indicate?"

    Dunno. I do know what an octagon-shaped sign indicates... <g,d&r>

    yeah, it means you are following an MG car...

    https://www.alamy.com/mg-logo-in-octagonal-frame-morris-garages-image4655430.html

    --
    The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
    its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

    Anon.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to Mayayana on Fri Mar 19 18:27:47 2021
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: Mayayana to Richard Falken on Fri Mar 19 2021 10:46 am

    I think you're taking too much an engineer's point of
    view. What about gardening? Cooking? You want
    people to be forced to have the kind of expertise you
    have, but that's a very abstruse kind of expertise. You're
    looking at it as a techie. If that makes sense then why
    can't a florist refuse to sell you a rose bush unless you
    can show that you know how to take care of it? That
    gets silly very quickly.

    I am taking a tech point of view because I assume most people on this platform are microchipheads.

    Fun fact: I was actually thinking about cooking and cooking tools too, but I didn't include it in my earlier post because it wasalready too much. But since you have brought the subject, there are lots of people using cooking implements and electrodomestics in dangerous ways, and nobody seems to be addressing this.

    Here in the Hospital they nearly caused a fire because they put something with a metallic can in a microwave, for example.

    I think you don't have to be an expert to understand that you don't put metal in microwaves, or use them to dry your cat after bath. However, you need to have a basic level of awareness. Electrodomestics in the EU always come with lots of disclaimers and invisible safety ingrained, but none of that matters the least if you are braindead stupid.

    Fools are great at beating foolproof systems.

    My horses do my gardening for me for the most part, so I let them be the experts in mowing the lawn. That only shifts the burden on my part: now instead of needing to know how to manage a lawn mower, I need to know how to make horses happy.



    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to Mayayana on Fri Mar 19 17:59:46 2021
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: Mayayana to Richard Falken on Fri Mar 19 2021 10:46 am

    The question of whether someone is authorized to use a device
    is different. Are you going to require a license to operate a
    TV or cellphone? In a car you might put others at risk. Not
    knowing that your browser or TV are spying on you is hardly
    a public risk.

    I think computer users who don't know how to use a computer are a public threat.

    These are the users that get their devices infected with worms and end up serving as a platform for botnets that are eventually used to trash production systems. There is a reason why certain ISPs scan for missconfigured systems and lock their connectivity. They are also the sort of people who will take a selfie in a laboratory full of sensitive secrets and then upload it to social media. Don't laugh, I have had this last one happen.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to David Higton on Fri Mar 19 18:14:38 2021
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: David Higton to Deloptes on Fri Mar 19 2021 08:34 pm

    Diesel should be banned from the face of the earth. It has killed
    thousands of people by pollution (particulates, nitrogen dioxide and
    carbon monoxide) and continues to do so.

    Also, once a diesel, always a diesel - that's the only fuel it can
    consume during its entire life.

    Electric cars kill very few people by pollution, because the pollution that's created today in the power generation process is much diluted
    before it reaches humans - and as time goes on, more and more
    electricity is being generated from non-polluting sources, so the
    pollution is decreasing. Rapidly.

    David

    Conbustion engines tend not to produce meaningful ammounts of carbon monoxide unless they are badly tuned. Carbon monoxide is the signature of bad combustion and car designers and techniccians go to great lengths to ensure the combustion is any good.

    Your regular coal powered power plant (which is the sort of thing a lot of countries would use to charge electric cars, if they had them in significative numbers) is more complex. If they happen to be using a bad source for fuel they are likely to produce a lot of byproducts like sulphur (in addition to the regular CO2). Nowadays this is less of a problem because they tune their fuels more carefully and also process the exhaust smoke so if does not carry as much bad stuff, but this makes all the deal all the less efficient.

    There is a coal power plant not far from here, and they are always testing the environment for pollutants generated by it, and they always find them. While the argument can be made that remote power generation is more efficient than letting everybody use an internal combustion engine, results are not thrilling either.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to Axel Berger on Sat Mar 20 15:03:45 2021
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: Axel Berger to Richard Falken on Sat Mar 20 2021 01:58 pm

    Richard Falken wrote:
    Don't laugh, I have had this last one happen.

    Were the secrets visble on the outside? Rare.


    --
    /»\ No | Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 221/ 7771 8067
    \ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Stra▀e 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069
    áX in | D-50829 K÷ln-Ossendorf http://berger-odenthal.de
    / \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

    More like they were having and end-of-project party in a laboratory/workshop in which the secret
    prototypes were the size of a piano, and somebody decided to start taking selfies.

    But then it is also common for reporters to visit hospitals and make recordings and taking pictures
    of computer rooms, when screens could be displaying sensitive information. This is why I have a
    no-smartphones rule near my terminals.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Fri Mar 19 21:17:10 2021
    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    Take climate change. Whole rafts of proactive legislation that does not addfess an existing problem that affects people, but a *possible* future
    one that *might* affect people,  that in any case  does *not* address carbon *emissions*, only make profits for 'green' 'renewable' companies
    who are heavily subsidised as well. They cant fail. Except they do all
    the time.

    Legislation is the primary way to market product no one wants or needs,
    by mandating its adoption. And thus obsoleting existing perfectly
    functional product.

    True true - Tesla becomes green after >200000km if all goes well and you do
    not replace the battery after 5y. Until then the best is diesel fuel - the
    one they want to ban, because it's engine is most efficient and green.
    I was shocked - there were studies - big studies - "they" refused to make public. Crazy!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mayayana@3:770/3 to Deloptes on Fri Mar 19 16:34:07 2021
    "Deloptes" <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote

    | True true - Tesla becomes green after >200000km if all goes well and you
    do
    | not replace the battery after 5y. Until then the best is diesel fuel - the
    | one they want to ban, because it's engine is most efficient and green.
    | I was shocked - there were studies - big studies - "they" refused to make
    | public. Crazy!
    |

    I came across this report at one point:

    https://theicct.org/publications/EV-battery-manufacturing-emissions

    Not as shocking as you're indicating, but certainly
    questioning the "greenness" of electric. Both the battery
    manufacture and the source of electricity are factors.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From David Higton@3:770/3 to Deloptes on Fri Mar 19 20:34:04 2021
    In message <s330s7$pq4$1@dont-email.me>
    Deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote:

    True true - Tesla becomes green after >200000km if all goes well and you do not replace the battery after 5y. Until then the best is diesel fuel - the one they want to ban, because it's engine is most efficient and green. I
    was shocked - there were studies - big studies - "they" refused to make public. Crazy!

    Diesel should be banned from the face of the earth. It has killed
    thousands of people by pollution (particulates, nitrogen dioxide and
    carbon monoxide) and continues to do so.

    Also, once a diesel, always a diesel - that's the only fuel it can
    consume during its entire life.

    Electric cars kill very few people by pollution, because the pollution
    that's created today in the power generation process is much diluted
    before it reaches humans - and as time goes on, more and more
    electricity is being generated from non-polluting sources, so the
    pollution is decreasing. Rapidly.

    David

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Axel Berger@3:770/3 to David Higton on Fri Mar 19 22:21:17 2021
    David Higton wrote:
    Diesel
    carbon monoxide

    Alright, that suffices. The rest of your post is obviously not worth
    looking at. There may well be subjects, you do know something about.


    --
    /»\ No | Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 221/ 7771 8067
    \ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Stra▀e 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069
    áX in | D-50829 K÷ln-Ossendorf http://berger-odenthal.de
    / \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From David Higton@3:770/3 to Axel Berger on Fri Mar 19 22:39:55 2021
    In message <605515CD.649F0155@Berger-Odenthal.De>
    Axel Berger <Spam@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:

    David Higton wrote:
    Diesel
    carbon monoxide

    Alright, that suffices. The rest of your post is obviously not worth
    looking at. There may well be subjects, you do know something about.

    I take it you're attempting to deny the facts in some way.

    Nitrogen dioxide kills by causing asthma attacks.

    Particulates kill by lung cancer, and some other problems caused when
    they enter the blood stream because they're so small.

    Carbon monoxide kills by causing or exacerbating heart disease.

    A very recent diesel engine, in good adjustment, and with the post-
    treatment chemicals present and particulate filter not clogged, can
    give not too bad emissions. Unfortunately there are plenty of people
    who don't keep the above conditions true, or deliberately disable
    some of this stuff to get better performance and/or economy, or who
    are still running old vehicles that were never capable of tolerable
    emission levels. We all see diesels emitting black smoke as they
    accelerate, from time to time. All those things kill people.

    The fundamental problem with diesel is the requirement for the fuel
    and air to mix and to burn completely, in no time flat. Complete
    combustion simply cannot happen under those conditions.

    Electric propulsion totally avoids the problems.

    David

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to David Higton on Sat Mar 20 07:48:49 2021
    David Higton wrote:

    I take it you're attempting to deny the facts in some way.

    Nitrogen dioxide kills by causing asthma attacks.

    You are a naive fool, but it is your right to be one. I do not want to argue further on that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to Mayayana on Sat Mar 20 08:07:48 2021
    Mayayana wrote:

    "Deloptes" <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote

    | True true - Tesla becomes green after >200000km if all goes well and you
    do
    | not replace the battery after 5y. Until then the best is diesel fuel -
    | the one they want to ban, because it's engine is most efficient and
    | green. I was shocked - there were studies - big studies - "they" refused
    | to make public. Crazy!
    |

    I came across this report at one point:

    https://theicct.org/publications/EV-battery-manufacturing-emissions

    Not as shocking as you're indicating, but certainly
    questioning the "greenness" of electric. Both the battery
    manufacture and the source of electricity are factors.

    Don't know if you understand German, but here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0uUKHxxCu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm9h0MJ2swo

    French government and German car manufacturer did extensive research
    comparing the carbon and waste footprint of electric cars with diesel and benzin (gasolin) cars.
    The only point I agree with the naive fools is that there must be done something for the big cities. In my opinion they must be shut down anyway
    for living - it is inhumane.
    And living outside makes EVs obsolete anyway.

    This is enough to close the topic.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Richard Falken on Sat Mar 20 10:11:33 2021
    On 19/03/2021 05:14, Richard Falken wrote:
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: David Higton to Deloptes on Fri Mar 19 2021 08:34 pm

    > Diesel should be banned from the face of the earth. It has killed
    > thousands of people by pollution (particulates, nitrogen dioxide and
    > carbon monoxide) and continues to do so.
    >
    > Also, once a diesel, always a diesel - that's the only fuel it can
    > consume during its entire life.
    >
    > Electric cars kill very few people by pollution, because the pollution
    > that's created today in the power generation process is much diluted
    > before it reaches humans - and as time goes on, more and more
    > electricity is being generated from non-polluting sources, so the
    > pollution is decreasing. Rapidly.
    >
    > David

    Conbustion engines tend not to produce meaningful ammounts of carbon monoxide unless they are badly tuned. Carbon monoxide is the signature of bad combustion
    and car designers and techniccians go to great lengths to ensure the combustion
    is any good.

    Catalytic converters tend to clean up all partial combustion products.
    That's why they are fitted.

    Nitrogen oxides are a direct result of pushing combustion temperatures
    and pressures higher in pursuit of 'green' virtue signals - increased
    mileage per gallon/litre.

    We would all like to have a 1000 mile range electric car that cost less
    than a diesel, and didn't pollute the environment more than a diesel car
    by dint of the mining needed to create the battery...

    ...but obviously in the land of green virtue signalling, pushing the
    pollution out of your suburb onto a starving african kid crawling out of
    a cobalt mine, is virtue of the highest order.

    Oh and according to the Gospel according to Michael Mann, it doesn't
    matter where you emit carbon dioxide, the final effect on civilization
    is the same.



    Your regular coal powered power plant (which is the sort of thing a lot of countries would use to charge electric cars, if they had them in significative
    numbers) is more complex.

    Most of the windmills built use more coal to build - mainly in china -
    than would be burnt to generate the same amount of electricity they
    generate, over a remarkably short lifetime.

    It is clear from the fact that no high visibility virtue signalling
    climate change devotee has ever sold a beachside mansion in 'danger of
    sea level rise', or private jet, that they they don't believe it either.

    Its not science. Its *marketing*.

    If they happen to be using a bad source for fuel they
    are likely to produce a lot of byproducts like sulphur (in addition to the regular CO2). Nowadays this is less of a problem because they tune their fuels
    more carefully and also process the exhaust smoke so if does not carry as much
    bad stuff, but this makes all the deal all the less efficient.

    So many people cannot afford highly taxed fuel and 'renewable'
    electricity that they are now burning coal and wood instead. I thought I
    would never smell high sulphur coal burnt on an open grate again.

    Spectacular own goal



    There is a coal power plant not far from here, and they are always testing the
    environment for pollutants generated by it, and they always find them. While the argument can be made that remote power generation is more efficient than letting everybody use an internal combustion engine, results are not thrilling
    either.

    If the greens had their way, we would all be poisoned from the toxic by products of burning pixie dust and unicorn farts



    --
    “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Axel Berger on Sat Mar 20 09:55:36 2021
    On 19/03/2021 21:21, Axel Berger wrote:
    David Higton wrote:
    Diesel
    carbon monoxide

    Alright, that suffices. The rest of your post is obviously not worth
    looking at. There may well be subjects, you do know something about.


    +1


    --
    “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Mayayana on Sat Mar 20 10:14:43 2021
    On 19/03/2021 20:34, Mayayana wrote:
    "Deloptes" <deloptes@gmail.com> wrote

    | True true - Tesla becomes green after >200000km if all goes well and you
    do
    | not replace the battery after 5y. Until then the best is diesel fuel - the | one they want to ban, because it's engine is most efficient and green.
    | I was shocked - there were studies - big studies - "they" refused to make
    | public. Crazy!
    |

    I came across this report at one point:

    https://theicct.org/publications/EV-battery-manufacturing-emissions

    Not as shocking as you're indicating, but certainly
    questioning the "greenness" of electric. Both the battery
    manufacture and the source of electricity are factors.


    Nuclear power would fix the electricity generating issue. At a far lower
    cost than 'green' energy.

    But yes, battery manufacture is a problem of pollution.

    I visited a lead smelting plant once - they also were France's major
    recycler of car batteries - "Dont park your car there" "Why not" "that's sulphuric acid dripping off that structure"

    Very green.


    --
    “I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most
    obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which
    they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

    ― Leo Tolstoy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Sat Mar 20 10:28:31 2021
    On 20/03/2021 10:23, TimS wrote:
    On 20 Mar 2021 at 10:11:33 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    If the greens had their way, we would all be poisoned from the toxic by
    products of burning pixie dust and unicorn farts

    Never mind a unicorn farting, how does a pushme-pullyou fart? Eh? Eh?

    same way Michael Mann does. By opening the mouth that looks like a hairy
    muff and letting blow


    --
    “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Sat Mar 20 10:23:03 2021
    On 20 Mar 2021 at 10:11:33 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    If the greens had their way, we would all be poisoned from the toxic by products of burning pixie dust and unicorn farts

    Never mind a unicorn farting, how does a pushme-pullyou fart? Eh? Eh?

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Axel Berger@3:770/3 to Richard Falken on Sat Mar 20 13:58:43 2021
    Richard Falken wrote:
    Don't laugh, I have had this last one happen.

    Were the secrets visble on the outside? Rare.


    --
    /»\ No | Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 221/ 7771 8067
    \ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Stra▀e 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069
    áX in | D-50829 K÷ln-Ossendorf http://berger-odenthal.de
    / \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Axel Berger@3:770/3 to David Higton on Sat Mar 20 14:03:41 2021
    David Higton wrote:
    Electric propulsion totally avoids the problems.
    Locally.

    Can be a big boon in huge and dense metroloplises, which is why China
    has begun using them a lot.


    --
    /»\ No | Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 221/ 7771 8067
    \ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Stra▀e 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069
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  • From Scott Alfter@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Thu Mar 25 16:18:08 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    In article <s32cdj$k1e$2@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    It is not.

    And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
    this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.

    Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
    then you are truly lost

    The 2020 "election" put paid to the idea that the ballot box would curb corruption. Fortunately, it's only one of the four boxes of liberty, and at least one of those other boxes remains unexplored as of the present.

    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jasen Betts@3:770/3 to Scott Alfter on Thu Mar 25 21:00:17 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
    In article <s32cdj$k1e$2@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    It is not.

    And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
    this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.

    Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
    then you are truly lost

    I realise that America was founded on the right to oppress ones
    neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
    forbids that sort of thing.

    The 2020 "election" put paid to the idea that the ballot box would curb corruption. Fortunately, it's only one of the four boxes of liberty, and at least one of those other boxes remains unexplored as of the present.

    False. you whackos tried the last box on 6 Jan.

    Take a good hard look at yourself and get a fucking clue.

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Jasen Betts on Thu Mar 25 21:28:08 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 21:00:17 -0000 (UTC)
    Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:


    False. you whackos tried the last box on 6 Jan.



    Out of curiosity, how many shots were fired that day, and by whom?

    I take it you are referring to the only unarmed insurrection in history.

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Jasen Betts on Thu Mar 25 21:41:17 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 25 Mar 2021 at 21:00:17 GMT, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
    In article <s32cdj$k1e$2@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    It is not.

    And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
    this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.

    Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable'
    then you are truly lost

    I realise that America was founded on the right to oppress ones
    neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
    forbids that sort of thing.

    It gained a constitution that is hard to change and then even harder to unchange when the changers turn out to be loonies. Such as Prohibition.

    The US is too big a country to govern properly (50 or so million is about right). The US, Russia, China, and India should all be broken down into their constituent states.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 6+Cola@3:770/3 to TimS on Fri Mar 26 00:51:03 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 25 Mar 2021 21:41:17 GMT, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    On 25 Mar 2021 at 21:00:17 GMT, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
    In article <s32cdj$k1e$2@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    It is not.

    And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb
    this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.

    Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable' >>>> then you are truly lost

    I realise that America was founded on the right to oppress ones
    neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
    forbids that sort of thing.

    It gained a constitution that is hard to change and then even harder to >unchange when the changers turn out to be loonies. Such as Prohibition.

    The US is too big a country to govern properly (50 or so million is about >right). The US, Russia, China, and India should all be broken down into their >constituent states.

    There is some Truth in that ..................

    However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
    your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
    or was, very important.

    BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
    even be able to afford a Pi.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Deloptes@3:770/3 to All on Fri Mar 26 07:56:39 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    6+Cola wrote:

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
    even be able to afford a Pi.

    haha - USA will become Europe - man here they do not have the ability to manufacture independently anything - the f**king vaccine, not even masks.
    They have the machines, but not the materials, which they had to import,
    but couldn't.
    Europe is already a pathetic case - but hey there were 2 world wars carried
    out here - and the third one, that is going on is an invisible one.
    I wonder how USA will develop - at least you have right to own guns there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Fri Mar 26 10:17:07 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 26 Mar 2021 at 09:51:07 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 26/03/2021 04:51, 6+Cola wrote:
    However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
    your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
    or was, very important.

    Indeed. a war was fought by the right to be oppressed by Amercans rather
    than forein kings..

    BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????

    Ah...

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
    even be able to afford a Pi.

    Biden was only there as the most accepatable puppet to face up the election.

    Biden will do exactly what he is told, and when he isn't capable of that
    Ms Harris will step up to the plate and sell the corporate designed
    emotional narrative of bleeding heart Liberalism to Joe Public to
    justify even further the transfer of money from the middle classes to
    the oligarchy.

    Trump may have been the total arsehole everyone claimed, but he wasn't *entirely* bought and paid for.

    Trouble is he is dim. But you're right about Harris. AISB, The US political parties are fucked and have forgotten how to offer plausible candidates.
    Willie Clinton was prolly the last dem one, and Bush the Elder on the other side.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Fri Mar 26 09:51:07 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 26/03/2021 04:51, 6+Cola wrote:
    However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
    your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
    or was, very important.

    Indeed. a war was fought by the right to be oppressed by Amercans rather
    than forein kings..

    BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????

    Ah...

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
    even be able to afford a Pi.

    Biden was only there as the most accepatable puppet to face up the election.

    Biden will do exactly what he is told, and when he isn't capable of that
    Ms Harris will step up to the plate and sell the corporate designed
    emotional narrative of bleeding heart Liberalism to Joe Public to
    justify even further the transfer of money from the middle classes to
    the oligarchy.

    Trump may have been the total arsehole everyone claimed, but he wasn't *entirely* bought and paid for.

    --
    Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
    guns, why should we let them have ideas?

    Josef Stalin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to TimS on Fri Mar 26 10:50:27 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 25 Mar 2021 21:41:17 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    On 25 Mar 2021 at 21:00:17 GMT, Jasen Betts
    <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:


    I realise that America was founded on the right to oppress ones
    neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
    forbids that sort of thing.

    It gained a constitution that is hard to change and then even harder
    to unchange when the changers turn out to be loonies. Such as
    Prohibition.


    It has a Constitution that can simply be ignored, and is increasingly
    seen as irrelevant.

    The US is too big a country to govern properly (50 or so million is
    about right). The US, Russia, China, and India should all be broken
    down into their constituent states.

    As it was originally. The federal government has simply taken powers
    away from the states, in the same way the EU is taking away
    'competences' from its member states. The Constitution used to prevent
    that happening.

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mayayana@3:770/3 to 6+@mr272x.org on Fri Mar 26 08:26:59 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    "6+Cola" <6+@mr272x.org> wrote

    | However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
    | your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
    | or was, very important.
    |
    That's a common misconception. Only RI was founded
    on ideas of freedom. The original MA settlement at Plymouth
    was made by people who were mad that their own cult of
    Christianity was second fiddle in England. They were on a
    religious mission. I once read that there used to be
    a law in MA that a man found living alone would be given
    6 weeks to move in with a family. If he didn't, a family would
    be assigned.

    It's only within the past century or so that it's really
    been feasible for people to live alone. In pre-mechanized
    farming society, a family with kids would have been all but
    indispensible. People didn't have kids to brag about their
    CEO child. Kids were needed to plow and harvest. (Or slaves.
    Or indentured servants. Or other people who somehow
    missed out on our famous freedom.)

    And lets not forget "I owe my soul to the company store."
    We complain bitterly today about no family leave for fathers,
    but unions and labor laws are a fairly recent development.
    People used to do little but work, except on Sundays when
    they were expected to be at church.

    It's only been about
    50 years that it's been considered normal not to be married
    and have kids. Now people hang around the shopping mall,
    on their parents' dime, and imagine their ancestors fought
    the Revolutionay War so that they'd have the right to pick
    up entertainment devices on sale at Best Buy. That's not
    freedom. It's societal disintegration.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Fri Mar 26 14:00:41 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 26/03/2021 10:17, TimS wrote:
    On 26 Mar 2021 at 09:51:07 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 26/03/2021 04:51, 6+Cola wrote:
    However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
    your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
    or was, very important.

    Indeed. a war was fought by the right to be oppressed by Amercans rather
    than forein kings..

    BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????

    Ah...

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
    even be able to afford a Pi.

    Biden was only there as the most accepatable puppet to face up the election. >>
    Biden will do exactly what he is told, and when he isn't capable of that
    Ms Harris will step up to the plate and sell the corporate designed
    emotional narrative of bleeding heart Liberalism to Joe Public to
    justify even further the transfer of money from the middle classes to
    the oligarchy.

    Trump may have been the total arsehole everyone claimed, but he wasn't
    *entirely* bought and paid for.

    Trouble is he is dim. But you're right about Harris. AISB, The US political parties are fucked and have forgotten how to offer plausible candidates. Willie Clinton was prolly the last dem one, and Bush the Elder on the other side.

    Yup. Its the 'iron law of oligarchy' in play. Unless you have a Trumpian
    style populism underneath, *all* the viable political choices are bought *years* before they even get to be candidates.

    In the UK, George Galloway described the two main parties as 'two cheeks
    of the same arse'

    Or as someone else said - 'It doesn't matter who you vote for, the
    government always gets in'.



    --
    “People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
    and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
    Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
    one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

    Paul Krugman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Scott Alfter@3:770/3 to usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org on Fri Mar 26 19:32:44 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    In article <s3itl1$s57$1@gonzo.revmaps.no-ip.org>,
    Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
    On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:
    In article <s32cdj$k1e$2@dont-email.me>,
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    It is not.

    And one mechanism and one only has been shown to be effective to curb >>>this level of corruption, and that is the ballot box.

    Once that is corrupted, and people become 'cancelled' and 'deplorable' >>>then you are truly lost

    I realise that America was founded on the right to oppress ones
    neighbours, but since then it has gained a constitution that mostly
    forbids that sort of thing.

    The 2020 "election" put paid to the idea that the ballot box would curb
    corruption. Fortunately, it's only one of the four boxes of liberty, and at >> least one of those other boxes remains unexplored as of the present.

    False. you whackos tried the last box on 6 Jan.

    O RLY? How is it, then, that the only gun anyone can find was in the hands
    of that cop who murdered a peaceful protester?

    When people fear the government, the result is tyranny.
    When government fears the people, the result is liberty.

    Want to see what a real rebellion looks like? Keep trolling and you'll get
    it.

    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 6+Cola@3:770/3 to All on Fri Mar 26 22:40:46 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.misc, alt.politics

    On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 07:56:39 +0100, Deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    6+Cola wrote:

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
    even be able to afford a Pi.

    haha - USA will become Europe - man here they do not have the ability to >manufacture independently anything - the f**king vaccine, not even masks. >They have the machines, but not the materials, which they had to import,
    but couldn't.
    Europe is already a pathetic case - but hey there were 2 world wars carried >out here - and the third one, that is going on is an invisible one.
    I wonder how USA will develop - at least you have right to own guns there.

    For now .... but the Citizen Disempowerment crusade
    never ends.

    But yes, with massive taxes - mostly going to "feel good/
    look good" projects - and enhanced central "management"
    of the economy from the top down, the USA could easily
    take on the look and feel of the EU.

    Maybe the Brits were the smart ones ....

    Anyway, it is my hypothesis that the huge drive to
    legalize marijuana (and in some cases all dope)
    is part of the "socialist" plan. The idea is to knock
    twenty+ IQ points and all motivation from the
    Great Unwashed. It is the only way their sort of
    USA could possibly persist. Stonies don't give
    a shit. don't analyze too deeply. don't have the
    focus or energy to protest effectively. So, THIS
    is our "Soylent Green(leaf)", the perfect way to
    get the masses to pacify themselves.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Sat Mar 27 03:51:52 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.misc, alt.politics

    On 27/03/2021 02:40, 6+Cola wrote:
    On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 07:56:39 +0100, Deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    6+Cola wrote:

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
    even be able to afford a Pi.

    haha - USA will become Europe - man here they do not have the ability to
    manufacture independently anything - the f**king vaccine, not even masks.
    They have the machines, but not the materials, which they had to import,
    but couldn't.
    Europe is already a pathetic case - but hey there were 2 world wars carried >> out here - and the third one, that is going on is an invisible one.
    I wonder how USA will develop - at least you have right to own guns there.

    For now .... but the Citizen Disempowerment crusade
    never ends.

    But yes, with massive taxes - mostly going to "feel good/
    look good" projects - and enhanced central "management"
    of the economy from the top down, the USA could easily
    take on the look and feel of the EU.

    Maybe the Brits were the smart ones ....

    I am a Brit, and I voted to leave the EU.
    Why? Because I studied engineering, and system theory.
    Large systems with centralised control, signal lag and no local feedback
    are very slow to respond to events.

    The USA is a federation. There are considerable flexibilities in each
    states legislature. And it has the safety valve of democracy. Trump,
    love him or hate him, was a *possibility* open to the people.
    The European Union is not a federation - it is a top down imposition
    that has declared itself immune to prosecution, and its aim is to
    completely centralise all law and regulations under a bureaucracy that
    is not elected, but appointed. The only elections are effectively show elections - the European parliament has less power than the US senate.

    Not only is it slow and centralised, but it has deliberately removed
    feedback from the citizens.


    I have no moral objection to this, my objection is pragmatic. It doesn't
    work very well.

    Brussels bureaucrats would have you travelling behind a dog team
    stopping to pick up shit and put it in plastic bags for later 'safe'
    disposal in the Arctic wastes of Lapland, as well as the orderly
    suburbs of Berlin, simply because it makes for neat and tidy
    centralised legislation.

    The reaction of the EU to the Covid pandemic has shown this very
    clearly. Despite desperate attempts to blame Britain, or to tell its
    citizens that the British not-for-huge-pharma-profit vaccine doesn't
    work, or kills you, the fact is that Britain is after Israel the second
    most vaccinated country in the world, and the hospital admission rates
    and death rates seem to be reflecting this.

    We get so involved in the hype that we dont look at ;political system rationally and understand them in terms of cost benefit analysis.

    I did and voted accordingly.

    Anyway, it is my hypothesis that the huge drive to
    legalize marijuana (and in some cases all dope)
    is part of the "socialist" plan. The idea is to knock
    twenty+ IQ points and all motivation from the
    Great Unwashed. It is the only way their sort of
    USA could possibly persist. Stonies don't give
    a shit. don't analyze too deeply. don't have the
    focus or energy to protest effectively. So, THIS
    is our "Soylent Green(leaf)", the perfect way to
    get the masses to pacify themselves.

    Anything that persists becomes conservative.
    Moralities that suicide their own cultures, do not.

    I see nothing wrong in people who might really have very little to offer society and whom society has very little to offer in return, passing
    their lives away in a haze of cannabis fumes.

    If they decide to opt out, what in the end is wrong with that?

    The major problem today is that the machine has taken nearly everyone's
    job away.

    There really is no need for most people to work at all - we have built a
    world that will supply us with wealth without the need for 'labour' -
    which totally invalidates Marx and his dialogue between 'labour' and
    'capital'

    Covid has further disconnected people from 'work'

    Ecological concerns also place limits in the 'consumer' model of wealth distribution where everybody rushes around selling each other shit that
    they don't really need or want in order to justify a 'living wage' so
    that they can then buy the stuff they actually do need.

    Something will emerge that works. Provided we keep the theoretical
    sociologists and Marxists from tampering. Actually the market works
    pretty well. If left alone


    Heaven preserve us from people who think they have (or say they have)
    the answers to mankind's problems.



    --
    How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

    Adolf Hitler

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 6+Cola@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sat Mar 27 01:17:24 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.misc, alt.politics

    On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 03:51:52 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 27/03/2021 02:40, 6+Cola wrote:
    On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 07:56:39 +0100, Deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    6+Cola wrote:

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
    even be able to afford a Pi.

    haha - USA will become Europe - man here they do not have the ability to >>> manufacture independently anything - the f**king vaccine, not even masks. >>> They have the machines, but not the materials, which they had to import, >>> but couldn't.
    Europe is already a pathetic case - but hey there were 2 world wars carried >>> out here - and the third one, that is going on is an invisible one.
    I wonder how USA will develop - at least you have right to own guns there. >>
    For now .... but the Citizen Disempowerment crusade
    never ends.

    But yes, with massive taxes - mostly going to "feel good/
    look good" projects - and enhanced central "management"
    of the economy from the top down, the USA could easily
    take on the look and feel of the EU.

    Maybe the Brits were the smart ones ....

    I am a Brit, and I voted to leave the EU.
    Why? Because I studied engineering, and system theory.
    Large systems with centralised control, signal lag and no local feedback
    are very slow to respond to events.


    Ah, someone after my own heart :-)

    How to tune the PID for the EU ???


    The USA is a federation. There are considerable flexibilities in each
    states legislature. And it has the safety valve of democracy. Trump,
    love him or hate him, was a *possibility* open to the people.
    The European Union is not a federation - it is a top down imposition
    that has declared itself immune to prosecution, and its aim is to
    completely centralise all law and regulations under a bureaucracy that
    is not elected, but appointed. The only elections are effectively show >elections - the European parliament has less power than the US senate.

    The USA is rather odd. In ideal it is exactly what it claims
    to be - a united STATES with SOME federal-level controls.
    However it has steadily trended towards central management
    almost from its inception. Absolute rulers or ruling oligarchies
    seem to be the historical norm and bucking that model is a
    constant uphill battle. It is exhausting. I think The Leader is
    hardwired into humans, so doing anything else requires
    constant energy expendature. Eventually .......

    The USA system is also extremely robust, in that ideal model
    anyway. It is very "fractal", self-similar control structures
    from top to bottom, federal to the local garden club. In theory
    that makes it almost indestructable. Huge swaths could be
    vaporized and things would carry on at the surviving levels
    almost uninterrupted. The more that is tampered with the more
    destructable it becomes.


    Not only is it slow and centralised, but it has deliberately removed
    feedback from the citizens.

    The EU has removed SANITY.

    There is a term I've heard - "political math". It is nothing
    like the real math you need to run anything, but instead
    a cynical cipher where Fact is irrelevant and the only goal
    is to enhance political power and agendas. It cannot
    persevere in the long term, yet The Elite do not dare
    break the spell. They requre bread and circuses FOREVER
    lest their world tumble down in flames. They will keep
    fudging the books until their doomsday.

    I have no moral objection to this, my objection is pragmatic. It doesn't
    work very well.

    Brussels bureaucrats would have you travelling behind a dog team
    stopping to pick up shit and put it in plastic bags for later 'safe'
    disposal in the Arctic wastes of Lapland, as well as the orderly
    suburbs of Berlin, simply because it makes for neat and tidy
    centralised legislation.

    Well, it all sounds Just Great, in theory .......

    And, these days, "theory"/appearances is the only
    thing that counts.

    That all such "theories" WILL lead to unsurvivable
    disasters - well, as said, that does not matter so
    long as the political math of the moment seems good.

    The reaction of the EU to the Covid pandemic has shown this very
    clearly. Despite desperate attempts to blame Britain, or to tell its
    citizens that the British not-for-huge-pharma-profit vaccine doesn't
    work, or kills you, the fact is that Britain is after Israel the second
    most vaccinated country in the world, and the hospital admission rates
    and death rates seem to be reflecting this.

    The EU Covid response has been APPALLING. Then, when
    vaccines appeared, they even managed to screw THAT up.
    Germany even now is bracing for its third, worse, wave ....

    Maybe the Brits, Americans and Israelis will be the only
    ones left to run the western world ? :-)

    We get so involved in the hype that we dont look at ;political system >rationally and understand them in terms of cost benefit analysis.

    I did and voted accordingly.

    Anyway, it is my hypothesis that the huge drive to
    legalize marijuana (and in some cases all dope)
    is part of the "socialist" plan. The idea is to knock
    twenty+ IQ points and all motivation from the
    Great Unwashed. It is the only way their sort of
    USA could possibly persist. Stonies don't give
    a shit. don't analyze too deeply. don't have the
    focus or energy to protest effectively. So, THIS
    is our "Soylent Green(leaf)", the perfect way to
    get the masses to pacify themselves.

    Anything that persists becomes conservative.
    Moralities that suicide their own cultures, do not.

    The suicide is underway.

    However it does not happen in a vacuum. OTHERS
    are waiting in the wings for their opportunity to carve
    off a big slice. They are NOT "better" people - nasty
    horrid totalitarian types instead.


    I see nothing wrong in people who might really have very little to offer >society and whom society has very little to offer in return, passing
    their lives away in a haze of cannabis fumes.

    If they decide to opt out, what in the end is wrong with that?


    Well, there's "want to" and "ENCOURAGED to do so" ....


    The major problem today is that the machine has taken nearly everyone's
    job away.

    Not yet.

    But in twenty years .....

    "AI" is now improving by leaps and bounds. In 20 years
    it could run an entire manufacturing company - organizing
    purchases and deliveries to running/repairing the machines.
    NO humans required or desired.

    What do we do with all the obsolete humans ? There wil be
    a gap, before the promised cybertopia, when not enough
    people will make enough money. That's when the whole
    premise will fall down. Might be a "can't get there from here"
    sort of proposition.

    There really is no need for most people to work at all - we have built a >world that will supply us with wealth without the need for 'labour' -
    which totally invalidates Marx and his dialogue between 'labour' and >'capital'

    Mind "the gap" :-)

    Covid has further disconnected people from 'work'

    Ecological concerns also place limits in the 'consumer' model of wealth >distribution where everybody rushes around selling each other shit that
    they don't really need or want in order to justify a 'living wage' so
    that they can then buy the stuff they actually do need.

    Something will emerge that works. Provided we keep the theoretical >sociologists and Marxists from tampering. Actually the market works
    pretty well. If left alone


    Heaven preserve us from people who think they have (or say they have)
    the answers to mankind's problems.

    I am not religious. If we are to be "preserved" we will have
    to do it ourselves.

    And NOBODY "has the answers" because humans are an
    erratic, illogical, congnitive-dissonance-loving species. There
    are eight billion notions about how things should be - and a
    new eight billion tomorrow. Human societies are a sort of
    perpetual kludge, BARELY working, but there's no other way.

    Weirdly, even ancient societies with NO grasp of how the
    universe worked STILL tended to persist, indeed often
    became successful. That means something, but I'm not
    sure what. Is a good collective lie more important than
    The Truth ???

    ANYWAY ... stock up on Pi-4's now, while you can. Maybe
    a Pi-5 on the near horizon ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 6+Cola@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sat Mar 27 01:37:41 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:00:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 26/03/2021 10:17, TimS wrote:
    On 26 Mar 2021 at 09:51:07 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 26/03/2021 04:51, 6+Cola wrote:
    However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
    your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is,
    or was, very important.

    Indeed. a war was fought by the right to be oppressed by Amercans rather >>> than forein kings..

    BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????

    Ah...

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't >>>> even be able to afford a Pi.

    Biden was only there as the most accepatable puppet to face up the election.

    Biden will do exactly what he is told, and when he isn't capable of that >>> Ms Harris will step up to the plate and sell the corporate designed
    emotional narrative of bleeding heart Liberalism to Joe Public to
    justify even further the transfer of money from the middle classes to
    the oligarchy.

    Trump may have been the total arsehole everyone claimed, but he wasn't
    *entirely* bought and paid for.

    Trouble is he is dim. But you're right about Harris. AISB, The US political >> parties are fucked and have forgotten how to offer plausible candidates.
    Willie Clinton was prolly the last dem one, and Bush the Elder on the other >> side.

    Yup. Its the 'iron law of oligarchy' in play. Unless you have a Trumpian >style populism underneath, *all* the viable political choices are bought >*years* before they even get to be candidates.

    In the UK, George Galloway described the two main parties as 'two cheeks
    of the same arse'

    Or as someone else said - 'It doesn't matter who you vote for, the
    government always gets in'.

    Heh, heh ...... yes, tear off the little name-tags that say
    Tory or Labour or Sensible Party, Dem or Republican,
    and it just says "professional politician" underneath :-)
    Same breed for the past 12,000 years or more.

    I suspect some Great Civilizatons during the ice age
    too ... done in by 'climate change' ... so 12,000 years
    may be a very conservative estimate. People have
    been people for nearly 300,000 years and who's to
    say how the Neanderthals ran things.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Aragorn@3:770/3 to All on Sat Mar 27 09:44:29 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    I tend to stay out of political threads — and even more so out of US-political threads — but me thinks that a little fact-check is at the
    order here... ↓

    On 26.03.2021 at 19:32, Scott Alfter scribbled:

    In article <s3itl1$s57$1@gonzo.revmaps.no-ip.org>,
    Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:

    On 2021-03-25, Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us> wrote:

    The 2020 "election" put paid to the idea that the ballot box would
    curb corruption. Fortunately, it's only one of the four boxes of
    liberty, and at least one of those other boxes remains unexplored
    as of the present.

    False. you whackos tried the last box on 6 Jan.

    O RLY? How is it, then, that the only gun anyone can find was in the
    hands of that cop who murdered a peaceful protester?

    1. The protester who was shot was anything from peaceful. Video
    footage of her violent breaking and entry is publicly visible
    at YouTube and other venues. The police officer who shot her felt
    threatened by her and by the thousands of other bigots who were
    trying to get inside.

    2. Several guns were photographed on protesters, and several vehicles
    belonging to protesters were discovered to contain automatic weapons
    and home-made explosives devices. Several peaceful protesters were
    arrested for possession of illegal firearms. One of the owners of a
    vehicle in which automatic rifles and explosives were detected was
    upon his arrest also found to be carrying two more firearms for which
    he did not have a license, as well as a knife.

    3. A gallows was erected by the protesters with the intent on lynching
    both Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi. In one of the videos shot by an
    undercover reporter who had infiltrated the mob, you can also see
    and hear one of the protesters call for a guillotine.


    Such poor peaceful protesters indeed: brainwashed bigots who couldn't
    bear the thought that Orange Jesus had lost the elections.

    No wonder that the most successful profession in the USA is that of psychiatrist. <facepalm>

    --
    With respect,
    = Aragorn =

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to 6+@mr272x.org on Sat Mar 27 09:14:24 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 27 Mar 2021 at 05:17:24 GMT, 6+Cola <6+@mr272x.org> wrote:

    On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 03:51:52 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 27/03/2021 02:40, 6+Cola wrote:
    On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 07:56:39 +0100, Deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    6+Cola wrote:

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't
    even be able to afford a Pi.

    haha - USA will become Europe - man here they do not have the ability to >>>> manufacture independently anything - the f**king vaccine, not even masks. >>>> They have the machines, but not the materials, which they had to import, >>>> but couldn't.
    Europe is already a pathetic case - but hey there were 2 world wars carried
    out here - and the third one, that is going on is an invisible one.
    I wonder how USA will develop - at least you have right to own guns there.

    For now .... but the Citizen Disempowerment crusade
    never ends.

    But yes, with massive taxes - mostly going to "feel good/
    look good" projects - and enhanced central "management"
    of the economy from the top down, the USA could easily
    take on the look and feel of the EU.

    Maybe the Brits were the smart ones ....

    I am a Brit, and I voted to leave the EU.
    Why? Because I studied engineering, and system theory.
    Large systems with centralised control, signal lag and no local feedback
    are very slow to respond to events.


    Ah, someone after my own heart :-)

    Excellent analysis by TNP as usual.

    The USA system is also extremely robust, in that ideal model
    anyway. It is very "fractal", self-similar control structures
    from top to bottom, federal to the local garden club.

    Except that too-small control structures lead to local tyrannies. In the UK we have about 50 police departments, for 65 million people. The US has more than 15000. And the US elects judges and chiefs of police, so sometimes people
    don't get justice, they get law and plenty of it. It's noticeable that road signage in the UK is designed to get people safely from A to B, whereas in the US it's designed to raise revenue. And then there are quotas - conspiracies betwen a city Mayor and the Chief of Police to fill the City's coffers; this
    is just a form of legalised banditry.



    --
    Tim

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Sat Mar 27 10:40:05 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 27/03/2021 09:14, TimS wrote:
    Except that too-small control structures lead to local tyrannies. In the UK we
    have about 50 police departments, for 65 million people. The US has more than 15000. And the US elects judges and chiefs of police, so sometimes people don't get justice, they get law and plenty of it. It's noticeable that road signage in the UK is designed to get people safely from A to B,

    Not since the 1960s.

    whereas in the
    US it's designed to raise revenue.

    As it is here largely. Or break cars.

    And then there are quotas - conspiracies
    betwen a city Mayor and the Chief of Police to fill the City's coffers; this is just a form of legalised banditry.

    Its the same here. Parking schemes employ wardens whose wages are paid
    out of the fines. Car parks are a monopoly that is 'revenue neutral' as
    a minimum. The cost of installing the machines is paid for by the
    parking charges, The same goes for speed cameras.

    In my local town there used to be a complete absence of traffic lights. Sometimes one had to wait a while for a gap in the traffic, to emerge
    from or enter a major side road. But the road was wide enough that
    queueing traffic did not hold up the other traffic.

    Now with traffic lights one *always* queues, congestion is increased.
    But people are told it 'improves safety'. I think it creates jobs for
    people who manufacture and install traffic lights.

    Even in our village there was a proposal that extra speed limit
    enforcement should be added to the rural roads 'to reduce accidents' I researched. The only fatal accident in the last 30 years was a
    motorcyclist who failed to make a bend in an *unrestricted* zone.

    Bureaucracy becomes a self justifying parasite, all for the best
    possible reasons.


    --
    "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
    let them."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Sat Mar 27 11:00:57 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 27 Mar 2021 at 10:40:05 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 27/03/2021 09:14, TimS wrote:
    Except that too-small control structures lead to local tyrannies. In the UK we
    have about 50 police departments, for 65 million people. The US has more than
    15000. And the US elects judges and chiefs of police, so sometimes people >> don't get justice, they get law and plenty of it. It's noticeable that road >> signage in the UK is designed to get people safely from A to B,

    Not since the 1960s.

    whereas in the
    US it's designed to raise revenue.

    As it is here largely. Or break cars.

    And then there are quotas - conspiracies
    betwen a city Mayor and the Chief of Police to fill the City's coffers; this
    is just a form of legalised banditry.

    Its the same here. Parking schemes employ wardens whose wages are paid
    out of the fines. Car parks are a monopoly that is 'revenue neutral' as
    a minimum. The cost of installing the machines is paid for by the
    parking charges, The same goes for speed cameras.

    Not quite. At least here, speeding fines go to central government, rather than the local authority. That removes the incentive for local collusion.

    --
    Tim

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Aragorn on Sat Mar 27 11:01:04 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, comp.misc, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 27/03/2021 08:44, Aragorn wrote:
    3. A gallows was erected by the protesters with the intent on lynching
    both Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi. In one of the videos shot by an
    undercover reporter who had infiltrated the mob, you can also see
    and hear one of the protesters call for a guillotine.


    Such poor peaceful protesters indeed: brainwashed bigots who couldn't
    bear the thought that Orange Jesus had lost the elections.

    And yet the Italians who shot and hung Mussolini in a public place, were
    lauded as heroes...ah, because they were *communists*..



    --
    "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
    and understanding".

    Marshall McLuhan

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Sat Mar 27 10:30:07 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.misc, alt.politics

    On 27/03/2021 05:17, 6+Cola wrote:
    I am not religious. If we are to be "preserved" we will have
    to do it ourselves.

    And NOBODY "has the answers" because humans are an
    erratic, illogical, congnitive-dissonance-loving species. There
    are eight billion notions about how things should be - and a
    new eight billion tomorrow. Human societies are a sort of
    perpetual kludge, BARELY working, but there's no other way.

    People misquote the corollary of Darwin's evolutionary notion. It is
    less the survival of the fittest than the elimination of the bottom
    useless one percent.

    From Nature's perspective, nothing matters except that the species
    stumbles through childhood and puberty, and makes it into the bushes for
    the crudest form of sex imaginable.


    Weirdly, even ancient societies with NO grasp of how the
    universe worked STILL tended to persist, indeed often
    became successful. That means something, but I'm not
    sure what. Is a good collective lie more important than
    The Truth ???

    Very much so. Given that the above criteria are all that matters, a big
    all powerful sky fairy with awesome powers who wrote a book of moral
    behaviour oddly suited to the cohesion of large societies in an emerging agrarian age, was bound to get to be wise rulers' favourite state religion.

    That it has collapsed in a post industrial one, is not surprising.

    Your comments on 'political math' too are cogent: in an age of universal franchise and the equivalence of voters, to leave actual rulership to
    the whim of 'οἱ πολλοί' is simply unthinkable for any emergent oligarchy.

    The natural tendency of such an oligarchy is to control all aspects of
    public communication that it can, to first of all suppress any idea that
    the system that allows them to exist at all, needs modification.

    Instead the invention of a Punch and Judy show, where you are restricted
    to voting for Punch (Donald Trump) or Judy (Hilary Clinton) and every
    utterance is backed up by cynical market research to see which
    particular utterance has public traction, so that they can build an
    emotional and political narrative of 'nationalism,' or 'liberalism' to
    disguise what is really going on - the usurpation of all powers by the oligarchy itself, not for the purposes of governing the nation, but to
    preserve the current ruling oligarchy. And pay off the very few members
    of society it actually needs - and as I pointed out, with mechanisation,
    only the technocrats are useful.

    Liberalism is an adapted Marxist creed that appeals to the educated technocratic middle class, as it panders to their fondness for feeling intellectually superior and their emotional emptiness resulting from a
    lack of religion. So Moral Causes have great political traction.

    Which is why it has abandoned the blue collar worker to the dustbin of
    history and is engaged in destroying all opposition to what was once
    known colloquially as 'the Man' ..

    It doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always wins...because
    they are the ones with their fingers up the bottoms of Punch, as well as
    Judy.

    Without an external existential crisis like the Cold war or WWII there
    is nothing for Government to do. Except feather its nest and ensure its
    own existence.

    Darwin rules, even in an oligarchy.

    The internet must be controlled for 'all the right reason' - can't have
    people talking about anything other than the faux issues of social
    justice, climate change, and gender politics - that are used to create
    an *impression* of lively democratic debate by 'informed' people on
    'serious issues'.

    British parliament spent ten times as much time debating the morality of
    fox hunting, than it did debating on whether or not to enter the Iraq
    war, based on forged documentation.

    Go figure.


    --
    The New Left are the people they warned you about.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Sat Mar 27 10:57:32 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 27/03/2021 05:37, 6+Cola wrote:
    On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:00:41 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 26/03/2021 10:17, TimS wrote:
    On 26 Mar 2021 at 09:51:07 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 26/03/2021 04:51, 6+Cola wrote:
    However the USA was founded on the idea of NOT "oppressing"
    your neighbors. The "Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone" principle is, >>>>> or was, very important.

    Indeed. a war was fought by the right to be oppressed by Amercans rather >>>> than forein kings..

    BTW ... what does this have to do with Raspberry Pi's ???????

    Ah...

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't >>>>> even be able to afford a Pi.

    Biden was only there as the most accepatable puppet to face up the election.

    Biden will do exactly what he is told, and when he isn't capable of that >>>> Ms Harris will step up to the plate and sell the corporate designed
    emotional narrative of bleeding heart Liberalism to Joe Public to
    justify even further the transfer of money from the middle classes to
    the oligarchy.

    Trump may have been the total arsehole everyone claimed, but he wasn't >>>> *entirely* bought and paid for.

    Trouble is he is dim. But you're right about Harris. AISB, The US political >>> parties are fucked and have forgotten how to offer plausible candidates. >>> Willie Clinton was prolly the last dem one, and Bush the Elder on the other >>> side.

    Yup. Its the 'iron law of oligarchy' in play. Unless you have a Trumpian
    style populism underneath, *all* the viable political choices are bought
    *years* before they even get to be candidates.

    In the UK, George Galloway described the two main parties as 'two cheeks
    of the same arse'

    Or as someone else said - 'It doesn't matter who you vote for, the
    government always gets in'.

    Heh, heh ...... yes, tear off the little name-tags that say
    Tory or Labour or Sensible Party, Dem or Republican,
    and it just says "professional politician" underneath :-)
    Same breed for the past 12,000 years or more.


    There is a terrific book (Slide Rule) written by Neville Shute - in
    addition to being a writer, he was also a professional aeronautical
    engineer, and founded his own aircraft company.

    At one point he comments on the decision making of government, and how
    his own company, and in fact the aircraft industry as a whole depended
    not on government largesse, but on the solid support of private
    individuals who were very rich. They would say 'yes' or 'no' rapidly. Government always prevaricated He cites the occasion of one time this
    did not happen. The individual in question was a professional politician
    but had independent means as well. The loss of his job was not a major concern, so he was free to vote his conscience.


    Ther is nothing that is more anathema to a large bureaucracy than people
    of independent means who cannot be controlled. Huge swathes of
    propaganda are devoted to telling us what an obscenity private wealth
    is, by all the professional poloticians...

    I suspect some Great Civilizatons during the ice age
    too ... done in by 'climate change' ... so 12,000 years
    may be a very conservative estimate. People have
    been people for nearly 300,000 years and who's to
    say how the Neanderthals ran things.

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
    those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
    a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
    farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
    lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    Marxism wants to smash society in order that the ideal one will grow
    naturally out of the remains. Well, what we have now is what grew
    naturally out of a time of no civilisation.

    I recommend Jared Diamonds short essay 'mankind's greatest mistake'
    where he argues that nearly all of the perceived ills that beset
    humanity - disease, inequality, slavery, war, property and crime, are
    the price we pay for a society based on agriculture, firstly, and then
    later, industrialisation. But the point is that irrespective of the
    emotional attachment to a life of an itinerant gypsy , we have
    achieved a massive population level.

    Slavery works. Private property works. Inequality works. Hierarchy
    works. I am not saying it is morally justified. Merely that, like
    science, it works.

    The Left puts its fingers in its ears at this point.




    --
    Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Joe@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Mar 27 13:59:00 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 10:40:05 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:



    Bureaucracy becomes a self justifying parasite, all for the best
    possible reasons.



    Indeed. While the Race Relations Act in the UK did bring some
    improvement in race relations, it also taught the post-war generation
    that if you want to eliminate an evil, the very last thing you should
    consider doing is to create a government department or quango to do the
    job.

    When the Patrician of Ankh-Morpork was told that the city's rat problem
    was increasing despite the bounty on dead rats, he thought for a moment
    and then ordered his civil service to tax the rat farms.

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Mar 27 17:29:53 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
    those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
    a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
    farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
    lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home; apartment
    blocks are being taken over by real estate investment trusts
    (REITs), which function solely for profit. Automobiles are
    being run by software which will demand subscription fees,
    so just like personal computers they will really be only
    rented, not owned. I've heard this referred to as TaaS
    (Transportation as a Service), a specialized form of
    Software as a Service (Saas) - feh!

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

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  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to TimS on Sat Mar 27 17:29:52 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    On 27 Mar 2021 at 10:40:05 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 27/03/2021 09:14, TimS wrote:

    And then there are quotas - conspiracies betwen a city
    Mayor and the Chief of Police to fill the City's coffers;
    this is just a form of legalised banditry.

    Its the same here. Parking schemes employ wardens whose wages are paid
    out of the fines. Car parks are a monopoly that is 'revenue neutral'
    as a minimum. The cost of installing the machines is paid for by the
    parking charges, The same goes for speed cameras.

    Not quite. At least here, speeding fines go to central government,
    rather than the local authority. That removes the incentive for
    local collusion.

    Ah, the phenomenon of "general revenue", which is
    government-speak for "money laundering".

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Sat Mar 27 17:54:01 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
    Automobiles are
    being run by software which will demand subscription fees,
    so just like personal computers they will really be only
    rented, not owned.

    I don't think I've ever rented a personal computer! Nor do I 'rent'
    the software, I don't use any proprietary operating systems.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Sat Mar 27 19:05:03 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that >>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing >>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
    farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
    lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.

    House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates

    Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.


    --
    It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Sat Mar 27 18:40:41 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
    those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
    a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
    farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
    lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
    65 million in the last 50 years.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Sat Mar 27 19:09:53 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 27 Mar 2021 at 19:05:03 GMT, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that >>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
    a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before >>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million >>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
    65 million in the last 50 years.

    House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates

    Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.

    There needs to be demand, though. Put interest rates up to 15% and watch what happens to the national debt.

    --
    Tim

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  • From Joe@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Mar 27 20:00:29 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:05:03 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
    <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation
    is that those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact
    simply showing a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the
    hunter gatherer. Before farming, before herding even, a
    population of at best a few million lived 'in harmony with
    nature' lacking even the idea of 'private property' let alone the
    hierarchies and the discipline that are necessary for large
    numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased
    from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.

    House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates

    Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.



    Yes, but they climbed quite quickly before the current negligible
    interest rate happened. I can recall paying around 15% on my mortgage, fortunately not for very long. House prices were rising quickly then.

    It has also a lot to do with ever-larger multiples of salary being
    lent, along with low deposits asked.

    'If the bank is willing to lend me a million pounds, then why not take
    it? A million-pound house will be worth two million in ten years' time'.

    Chicken and egg. If the builders were not certain that prices would
    keep rising indefinitely, they wouldn't sit on land, they'd build now.

    --
    Joe

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to William Unruh on Sat Mar 27 21:42:35 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 27 Mar 2021 at 21:28:52 GMT, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that >>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing >>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before >>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
    lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
    65 million in the last 50 years.

    Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
    laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult, unless there is nowhere to build them.

    Which is largely the case.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 04dco@3:770/3 to All on Sat Mar 27 21:24:13 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Chris Green:
    I don't think I've ever rented a personal computer! Nor do I 'rent'
    the software, I don't use any proprietary operating systems.

    Charlie Gibbs is right, while computers running open source software are
    under your control, embedded devices are much more restrictive. This is especially true for automobiles that have absolutely zero documentation
    and everything must be reverse engineered from scratch. This also
    applies to smartphones whose bootloader is locked with no way to unlock
    it or routers/modems.

    Even then, most of the population is unfortunately running some sort of proprietary operating system like Windows or OS X.

    No security is perfect, workarounds and exploits will be found but it
    might get to the point where such bypasses are more trouble than they're
    worth.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From William Unruh@3:770/3 to TimS on Sat Mar 27 21:28:52 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that >>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing >>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
    farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
    lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.

    Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
    laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
    unless there is nowhere to build them. (council laws against building on various land spaces, inability to build highrises, etc), while
    greenways, agricultural conversion laws, etc certainly have their good
    points, they also come at a cost of high house prices, and inability to
    house the extra population. Note that this is NOT because of lawas
    against private property. It may be cause of laws in favour of private property-- do not do anything to decrease the value of property.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Joe on Sun Mar 28 02:06:43 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 27/03/2021 20:00, Joe wrote:
    On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:05:03 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
    <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation
    is that those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact
    simply showing a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the
    hunter gatherer. Before farming, before herding even, a
    population of at best a few million lived 'in harmony with
    nature' lacking even the idea of 'private property' let alone the
    hierarchies and the discipline that are necessary for large
    numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased
    from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.

    House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates

    Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.



    Yes, but they climbed quite quickly before the current negligible
    interest rate happened. I can recall paying around 15% on my mortgage, fortunately not for very long. House prices were rising quickly then.

    It has also a lot to do with ever-larger multiples of salary being
    lent, along with low deposits asked.

    'If the bank is willing to lend me a million pounds, then why not take
    it? A million-pound house will be worth two million in ten years' time'.

    Chicken and egg. If the builders were not certain that prices would
    keep rising indefinitely, they wouldn't sit on land, they'd build now.

    And if people were not so sure that house prices would keep rising they wouldn't buy one on massive mortgages


    --
    "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
    and understanding".

    Marshall McLuhan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Sun Mar 28 02:27:35 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 27/03/2021 21:42, TimS wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 21:28:52 GMT, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> >>> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
    those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
    a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before >>>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million >>>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
    65 million in the last 50 years.

    Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
    laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
    unless there is nowhere to build them.

    Which is largely the case.

    Well it is a case dictated by national planning policy, rather than
    shortage of land area.

    And the need for "100000 additional houses a years" has been largely
    dictated by immigration policy, which has been for years beyond the
    remit of the UK government.
    ````
    --
    “Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
    a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

    Dennis Miller

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to William Unruh on Sun Mar 28 02:24:34 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 27/03/2021 21:28, William Unruh wrote:
    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that >>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing >>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before >>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
    lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to >> 65 million in the last 50 years.

    Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
    laws.

    Actually no. If you mean the standards to which houses must be
    constructed...

    Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
    unless there is nowhere to build them.

    That is nearer the mark. The UK is very tight on land space of the sort
    that it is worth putting a house on. Scotland north of the lowlands is
    wild and empty and no one lives there because frankly no one would want
    to, there is no infrastructure and no means of livelihood.

    Elsewhere there is a competition between land for farming. increasingly
    land for Nature™ and land for people to build houses on. A friend has a
    3 acre garden, but the boundary for 'permitted development' has been
    drawn just 15 feet inside his boundary, so his house is included, but
    his garden is green belt and sacrosanct.

    Ultimately what the 'housing crisis' boils down to is too many people
    with too high aspirations for the avaialable land area and
    infrastructure. Birth rates are falling but that has simple encouraged
    people to permit massive 3rd world immigration that carries with a it a
    high birth rate, so as to keep population levels up and the engine of consumerism running.

    Remember that modern post war economics is built on a Ponzi scheme of
    public debt. Today's pensions are paid by te contributions of today's
    workers, which works as long as there are ore workers earning that
    pensioners.

    If the number of workers and the whole population falls, you end up with
    a massive geriatric problem - how to finance a non working population of retired people.

    Someone seems to have tried with COVID-19 :@-)

    (council laws against building on
    various land spaces, inability to build highrises, etc), while
    greenways, agricultural conversion laws, etc certainly have their good points, they also come at a cost of high house prices, and inability to
    house the extra population. Note that this is NOT because of lawas
    against private property. It may be cause of laws in favour of private property-- do not do anything to decrease the value of property.

    In the end its a compound problem of too many people for the country to
    support but an inability to square the economic circle without a
    permanently rising population.

    The only modern country that has really limited both immigration, by
    diktat, and population by its own personal choices, has been Japan, and
    their economy is essentially IIRC bankrupt, but no one bothers about it..

    wiki---

    "Japan's asset price bubble collapse in 1991 led to a period of economic stagnation known as the "lost decade", sometimes now extended as the
    "lost 20 years." From 1995 to 2007, GDP fell from $5.33 trillion to
    $4.36 trillion in nominal terms. Japan today has the highest ratio of
    public debt to GDP of any developed nation, with national debt at 236%
    relative to GDP as of 2017. This debt is predominantly owned by
    Japanese nationals. The Japanese economy faces considerable challenges
    posed by an ageing and declining population, which peaked at 128 million
    in 2010 and has fallen to 125.9 million as of 2020. Projections
    suggest the population will continue to fall, and potentially drop below
    100 million by the end of the 21st century."

    No housing crisis in Japan....




    --
    "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
    and understanding".

    Marshall McLuhan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Rich@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Mar 28 01:55:38 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    In comp.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 27/03/2021 18:40, TimS wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation
    is that those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in
    fact simply showing a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the
    hunter gatherer. Before farming, before herding even, a
    population of at best a few million lived 'in harmony with
    nature' lacking even the idea of 'private property' let alone
    the hierarchies and the discipline that are necessary for large
    numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that are
    appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of his
    fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property. Housing
    prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the very richest
    will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased
    from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.

    House prices are climbing because of uber low interest rates

    Exactly! With interest rates near zero (reality is more like 3% after
    the banks add back their profit taking) the bidding up of house prices
    is effectively being done with "other peoples money".

    Put the base rate up to 15% and watch capital evaporate.

    Yup. And without fifteen buyers playing with almost free money to bid
    the prices up, the rapid increase would halt overnight.

    Sadly, however, given how many other aspects of the economy are now
    hitched to the baloon of "house prices always increase" the effects of withdrawl from the drug of "free money" will be painful to go through
    (as any withdrawl from an addictive drug is).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From William Unruh@3:770/3 to TimS on Sun Mar 28 03:23:11 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 21:28:52 GMT, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> >>> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that >>>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
    a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before >>>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million >>>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
    65 million in the last 50 years.

    Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
    laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
    unless there is nowhere to build them.

    Which is largely the case.


    But there is lots of land available, and lots of already built land that
    could have 2 3 4 ... story housing on it. The UK is not out of land. UK
    has half the population density of Holland England about the same as
    Holland and 1/25 of Hong Kong
    (although I would not push it that far).
    I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
    inNewcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot less
    than in Vancouver Can.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 6+Cola@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sat Mar 27 23:50:11 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.misc, alt.politics

    On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 10:30:07 +0000, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 27/03/2021 05:17, 6+Cola wrote:
    I am not religious. If we are to be "preserved" we will have
    to do it ourselves.

    And NOBODY "has the answers" because humans are an
    erratic, illogical, congnitive-dissonance-loving species. There
    are eight billion notions about how things should be - and a
    new eight billion tomorrow. Human societies are a sort of
    perpetual kludge, BARELY working, but there's no other way.

    People misquote the corollary of Darwin's evolutionary notion. It is
    less the survival of the fittest than the elimination of the bottom
    useless one percent.

    What' s "useless" today may become vital tomorrow. Any
    change in the "environment" can drastically change the
    Darwinian equation.

    From Nature's perspective, nothing matters except that the species
    stumbles through childhood and puberty, and makes it into the bushes for
    the crudest form of sex imaginable.

    So far as straight Darwin goes. However humans have a lot
    more IQ than ferrets and beetles. Mere rapid reproduction
    does not necessarily guarentee Darwinian "fitness".

    There IS a form of "social Darwinism", though most people
    get it very wrong - the "fittest" is always the very image of
    the particular cultures elite when what survives is often
    something quite different.


    Weirdly, even ancient societies with NO grasp of how the
    universe worked STILL tended to persist, indeed often
    became successful. That means something, but I'm not
    sure what. Is a good collective lie more important than
    The Truth ???

    Very much so. Given that the above criteria are all that matters, a big
    all powerful sky fairy with awesome powers who wrote a book of moral >behaviour oddly suited to the cohesion of large societies in an emerging >agrarian age, was bound to get to be wise rulers' favourite state religion.

    Perhaps there are a dozen things you have to get just right, and
    the other 99% of "truths" can be pure garbage. Doesn't matter
    if you worship the Tree Spirits or a big black rock, doesn't
    matter if you think the world is flat or that demons lurk in
    every shadow. Empires did just fine believing Aristotles
    somewhat defective physics.

    However TOO big a burden of false truths MAY limit a societies
    ultimate growth and success - trap them at a certain level. Had
    the HRCC managed to crush the New Science, where would
    we be now ? Likely alive, perhaps even "doing well", but "well"
    would involve a lot of treading manure into our stick-farming
    plots, not going to the moon or buying Raspberry Pi's. China's
    Confucius and Taoism instilled a certain ultra-conservatism
    that, while the society survived, thwarted the persuit of
    scientific knowledge and the changes needed to adapt to
    such knowledge. Mao rather ruthlessly beat that out of them ...


    That it has collapsed in a post industrial one, is not surprising.

    Your comments on 'political math' too are cogent: in an age of universal >franchise and the equivalence of voters, to leave actual rulership to
    the whim of '?? ??????' is simply unthinkable for any emergent oligarchy.

    The natural tendency of such an oligarchy is to control all aspects of
    public communication that it can, to first of all suppress any idea that
    the system that allows them to exist at all, needs modification.

    Instead the invention of a Punch and Judy show, where you are restricted
    to voting for Punch (Donald Trump) or Judy (Hilary Clinton) and every >utterance is backed up by cynical market research to see which
    particular utterance has public traction, so that they can build an
    emotional and political narrative of 'nationalism,' or 'liberalism' to >disguise what is really going on - the usurpation of all powers by the >oligarchy itself, not for the purposes of governing the nation, but to >preserve the current ruling oligarchy. And pay off the very few members
    of society it actually needs - and as I pointed out, with mechanisation,
    only the technocrats are useful.

    Liberalism is an adapted Marxist creed that appeals to the educated >technocratic middle class, as it panders to their fondness for feeling >intellectually superior and their emotional emptiness resulting from a
    lack of religion. So Moral Causes have great political traction.

    Which is why it has abandoned the blue collar worker to the dustbin of >history and is engaged in destroying all opposition to what was once
    known colloquially as 'the Man' ..

    It doesn't matter who you vote for, the Government always wins...because
    they are the ones with their fingers up the bottoms of Punch, as well as >Judy.

    Without an external existential crisis like the Cold war or WWII there
    is nothing for Government to do. Except feather its nest and ensure its
    own existence.

    Darwin rules, even in an oligarchy.

    The internet must be controlled for 'all the right reason' - can't have >people talking about anything other than the faux issues of social
    justice, climate change, and gender politics - that are used to create
    an *impression* of lively democratic debate by 'informed' people on
    'serious issues'.

    British parliament spent ten times as much time debating the morality of
    fox hunting, than it did debating on whether or not to enter the Iraq
    war, based on forged documentation.

    Go figure.

    There were perhaps greater gains involved in Iraq, if not for
    the politicians then their patrons. There is money and influence
    for those who involve themselves in major world events, which
    will lead to more money and influence. Hardly matters if the
    cause is just, or even real. Only players profit.

    The fox hunting, well, that's an attractive distraction to keep
    the common minds focused on the wrong things.

    STILL a fine tutor after all this time, Machiavelli. Delve beyond
    "Prince". His "Discourses" are even more educational - not
    just the "what", but the "why".

    Why do horrifically-incompetent CEOs and politicians get
    a "golden parachute" ? Machiavelli explains ... and it's logical

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to William Unruh on Sun Mar 28 04:50:42 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 28/03/2021 04:23, William Unruh wrote:
    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 21:28:52 GMT, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> >>>> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >>>>>
    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that
    those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing
    a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before >>>>>> farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million >>>>>> lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private >>>>>> property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are >>>>>> necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to
    65 million in the last 50 years.

    Almost certainly because of highly restrictive housing construction
    laws. Building 100000 additional houses a year should not be difficult,
    unless there is nowhere to build them.

    Which is largely the case.


    But there is lots of land available, and lots of already built land that could have 2 3 4 ... story housing on it. The UK is not out of land. UK
    has half the population density of Holland England about the same as
    Holland and 1/25 of Hong Kong
    (although I would not push it that far).
    I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it inNewcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot less
    than in Vancouver Can.


    It is a complicated situation.

    I live in a 5-6 bedroom house in half a hectare that is valued at less
    than a small two bedroom London apartment.

    Why?
    Because high paid jobs exist in London, but not here.

    There is no housing shortage in reality, only a shortage of what
    everybody wants, but by that very fact ensures cannot exist - affordable
    houses close to plenty of highly paid work.

    In tḥe USA house prices doubled when wives went out to work. Because
    people could afford to pay double for their houses!

    As soon as you build 'cheap houses' close to work, people move in and
    they get in short supply, leaving behind derelict terraces in old
    industrial towns where no one lives anymore.

    Plenty of cheap houses if you are prepared to live where there is no
    work to be had and its not especially beautiful

    --
    "I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
    puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Richard Falken@1:123/115 to 6+Cola on Sun Mar 28 06:22:30 2021
    Re: Re: Taking a Stand in the War on General-Purpose Computing
    By: 6+Cola to tnp@invalid.invalid on Sat Mar 27 2021 11:50 pm

    the HRCC managed to crush the New Science, where would
    we be now ? Likely alive, perhaps even "doing well", but "well"
    would involve a lot of treading manure into our stick-farming
    plots, not going to the moon or buying Raspberry Pi's. China's

    I just thought I could jump in here and let some opinion.

    Manure management gets a bad rep for some reason, but believe me, if you are phisically fit, managing manure is less stressful than modern jobs

    Seriously.

    And by that I mean that spending a whole morning pushing charts loaded with horse poop across a flooded field, getting stuck every 2 meters, is less stressful, and I would say it can be relaxing, compared to 1st world jobs such as publishing papers on deadlines, customer service, or running server farms.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (1:123/115)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to William Unruh on Sun Mar 28 16:07:30 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-28, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

    I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
    in Newcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot
    less than in Vancouver Can.

    Living in the Vancouver area, I can vouch for this.

    One problem is that housing is now seen primarily as an investment.
    The fact that you can live in it is incidental.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Mar 28 16:07:31 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-28, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Ultimately what the 'housing crisis' boils down to is too many people
    with too high aspirations for the avaialable land area and
    infrastructure. Birth rates are falling but that has simple encouraged
    people to permit massive 3rd world immigration that carries with a it a
    high birth rate, so as to keep population levels up and the engine of consumerism running.

    People who follow this philosophy have a lot in common with UFOlogists.
    The flying saucer people believe we will be saved by aliens from another planet, while immigration advocates believe we will be saved by aliens
    from another country. Either way, it avoids having to solve our
    problems ourselves.

    Remember that modern post war economics is built on a Ponzi scheme of
    public debt. Today's pensions are paid by te contributions of today's workers, which works as long as there are ore workers earning that pensioners.

    If the number of workers and the whole population falls, you end up with
    a massive geriatric problem - how to finance a non working population of retired people.

    Thus we depend on an ever-increasing population, which is a Ponzi scheme itself.

    In the end its a compound problem of too many people for the country
    to support but an inability to square the economic circle without a permanently rising population.

    We'd better find a way to transition to a steady-state economy.
    I'm not holding my breath, though - too many powerful people
    are benefiting too much from the status quo.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to TimS on Sun Mar 28 16:07:32 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that >>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing >>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
    farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
    lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to 65 million in the last 50 years.

    That's a pretty minor increase compared to the rest of the world.
    Until recently global population has been doubling every 40 years.
    Now that it's starting to slow, the ruling classes are having
    fits. Politicians want a bigger tax base, and corporations
    want more consumers. If they manage to get things back on
    track, there will be one person for every square meter of
    dry land in 600 years, and in 1800 years the entire planet
    will be converted into a mass of people swarming over each
    other like bees.

    Do the math. Most people don't understand exponentials.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Andreas Eder@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Sun Mar 28 18:39:00 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On So 28 Mär 2021 at 16:07, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    On 2021-03-28, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Ultimately what the 'housing crisis' boils down to is too many people
    with too high aspirations for the avaialable land area and
    infrastructure. Birth rates are falling but that has simple encouraged
    people to permit massive 3rd world immigration that carries with a it a
    high birth rate, so as to keep population levels up and the engine of
    consumerism running.

    People who follow this philosophy have a lot in common with UFOlogists.
    The flying saucer people believe we will be saved by aliens from another planet, while immigration advocates believe we will be saved by aliens
    from another country. Either way, it avoids having to solve our
    problems ourselves.

    Remember that modern post war economics is built on a Ponzi scheme of
    public debt. Today's pensions are paid by te contributions of today's
    workers, which works as long as there are ore workers earning that
    pensioners.

    If the number of workers and the whole population falls, you end up with
    a massive geriatric problem - how to finance a non working population of
    retired people.

    Thus we depend on an ever-increasing population, which is a Ponzi scheme itself.

    Like so many 'solutions' politicians invent.

    In the end its a compound problem of too many people for the country
    to support but an inability to square the economic circle without a
    permanently rising population.

    We'd better find a way to transition to a steady-state economy.
    I'm not holding my breath, though - too many powerful people
    are benefiting too much from the status quo.

    Amen

    'Andreas

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Andreas Eder@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Sun Mar 28 18:40:29 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On So 28 Mär 2021 at 16:07, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    On 27 Mar 2021 at 17:29:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 2021-03-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Its rather a study of mine, actually. My tentative observation is that >>>> those who advocate the purest form of Marxism are in fact simply showing >>>> a romantic fondness for the lifestyle of the hunter gatherer. Before
    farming, before herding even, a population of at best a few million
    lived 'in harmony with nature' lacking even the idea of 'private
    property' let alone the hierarchies and the discipline that are
    necessary for large numbers of people to act in unison.

    This makes it particularly ironic that many societies that
    are appalled by Karl Marx's philosophy are adopting one of
    his fundamental tenets: the elimination of private property.
    Housing prices are climbing so fast that soon none but the
    very richest will be able to afford their own home;

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to >> 65 million in the last 50 years.

    That's a pretty minor increase compared to the rest of the world.
    Until recently global population has been doubling every 40 years.
    Now that it's starting to slow, the ruling classes are having
    fits. Politicians want a bigger tax base, and corporations
    want more consumers. If they manage to get things back on
    track, there will be one person for every square meter of
    dry land in 600 years, and in 1800 years the entire planet
    will be converted into a mass of people swarming over each
    other like bees.

    Do the math. Most people don't understand exponentials.

    As we amply see in times of a pandemic.

    'Andreas

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:770/3 to cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid on Sun Mar 28 16:57:34 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
    On 2021-03-28, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

    I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
    in Newcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot
    less than in Vancouver Can.

    Living in the Vancouver area, I can vouch for this.

    One problem is that housing is now seen primarily as an investment.
    The fact that you can live in it is incidental.

    This same issue has driven up the housing market in NYC. Lots of
    expensive apartments lying idle, whose owners visit only once every
    year or two.

    On top of this, Vancouver has the issue that half of Hong Kong (the
    half with the higher incomes for the most part) has moved there.
    So you get added population pressure and an interesting income distribution
    as a result.
    --scott


    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Real Bev@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Sun Mar 28 09:47:35 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Charlie, what group are you posting in? comp.misc here.

    On 03/28/2021 09:07 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2021-03-27, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    In teh UK it's driven by population pressure, which has increased from 50 to >> 65 million in the last 50 years.

    That's a pretty minor increase compared to the rest of the world.
    Until recently global population has been doubling every 40 years.
    Now that it's starting to slow, the ruling classes are having
    fits. Politicians want a bigger tax base, and corporations
    want more consumers. If they manage to get things back on
    track, there will be one person for every square meter of
    dry land in 600 years, and in 1800 years the entire planet
    will be converted into a mass of people swarming over each
    other like bees.

    Have you read the 'Ringworld' books? Puppeteers were able to dispense
    with their sun because the heat generated by their bodies and industry overheated the planet all by itself. Always enjoyable.

    Do the math. Most people don't understand exponentials.


    --
    Cheers, Bev
    Vampireware; n, a project capable of sucking the lifeblood
    out of anyone unfortunate enough to be assigned to it,
    which never actually sees the light of day, but nonetheless
    refuses to die. -- Trygve Lode

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Sun Mar 28 18:46:20 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 28 Mar 2021 16:07:32 GMT
    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

    Do the math. Most people don't understand exponentials.

    Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up until
    some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly. AIUI ours is
    on track to flatten around 2050.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From William Unruh@3:770/3 to Scott Dorsey on Sun Mar 28 18:11:38 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-28, Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
    On 2021-03-28, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:

    I you want housing in London, yes, it is expensive. If you want it
    in Newcastle, not so much so. Although even in London they are a lot
    less than in Vancouver Can.

    Living in the Vancouver area, I can vouch for this.

    One problem is that housing is now seen primarily as an investment.
    The fact that you can live in it is incidental.

    This same issue has driven up the housing market in NYC. Lots of
    expensive apartments lying idle, whose owners visit only once every
    year or two.

    The city and the province now have a tax on unoccupied housing, which is
    pretty steep (on my house it would be like $20000 a year and I live in a
    very bog standard house in Vancouver.


    On top of this, Vancouver has the issue that half of Hong Kong (the
    half with the higher incomes for the most part) has moved there.

    Well, no. But there are pressures on housing, and big battles re
    densification
    So you get added population pressure and an interesting income distribution as a result.
    --scott



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  • From Axel Berger@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun Mar 28 21:52:22 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.

    True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
    fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.


    --
    /»\ No | Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 221/ 7771 8067
    \ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Stra▀e 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069
    áX in | D-50829 K÷ln-Ossendorf http://berger-odenthal.de
    / \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Axel Berger on Mon Mar 29 00:17:12 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
    Axel Berger <Spam@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
    until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.

    True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
    fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.

    Yep but not as uncomfortable as one per square metre. That being
    said it's not at all clear that the curve flattens because the limits are actually reached, after all the fall in growth in first world countries
    started to be noticeable by the early 1980s (I recall billboards in France
    that read (translated) "France Needs Babies" some time in 1980/81). So something starts the downward curve well before real limits are hit (France
    was far from the most crowded or stressed country at the time).

    Still with around ten billion of us expected at peak I expect it
    will get a little tight in places.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Mar 29 00:09:52 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
    Axel Berger <Spam@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
    exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
    until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.

    That's why the rulers are freaking out. They're living according to a
    model based on unlimited growth.

    True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
    fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.

    Not for the rulers.

    Yep but not as uncomfortable as one per square metre. That being
    said it's not at all clear that the curve flattens because the limits are actually reached, after all the fall in growth in first world countries started to be noticeable by the early 1980s (I recall billboards in France that read (translated) "France Needs Babies" some time in 1980/81). So something starts the downward curve well before real limits are hit (France was far from the most crowded or stressed country at the time).

    Still with around ten billion of us expected at peak I expect it
    will get a little tight in places.

    Yep. But the rulers don't care about that. They'll always have
    spacious mansions on large estates behind high, well-guarded walls.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 6+Cola@3:770/3 to TimS on Mon Mar 29 00:04:09 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 27 Mar 2021 09:14:24 GMT, TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    On 27 Mar 2021 at 05:17:24 GMT, 6+Cola <6+@mr272x.org> wrote:

    On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 03:51:52 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 27/03/2021 02:40, 6+Cola wrote:
    On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 07:56:39 +0100, Deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    6+Cola wrote:

    If Biden gets even half his taxation wishes, the entire USA won't >>>>>> even be able to afford a Pi.

    haha - USA will become Europe - man here they do not have the ability to >>>>> manufacture independently anything - the f**king vaccine, not even masks.
    They have the machines, but not the materials, which they had to import, >>>>> but couldn't.
    Europe is already a pathetic case - but hey there were 2 world wars carried
    out here - and the third one, that is going on is an invisible one. >>>>> I wonder how USA will develop - at least you have right to own guns there.

    For now .... but the Citizen Disempowerment crusade
    never ends.

    But yes, with massive taxes - mostly going to "feel good/
    look good" projects - and enhanced central "management"
    of the economy from the top down, the USA could easily
    take on the look and feel of the EU.

    Maybe the Brits were the smart ones ....

    I am a Brit, and I voted to leave the EU.
    Why? Because I studied engineering, and system theory.
    Large systems with centralised control, signal lag and no local feedback >>> are very slow to respond to events.


    Ah, someone after my own heart :-)

    Excellent analysis by TNP as usual.

    The USA system is also extremely robust, in that ideal model
    anyway. It is very "fractal", self-similar control structures
    from top to bottom, federal to the local garden club.

    Except that too-small control structures lead to local tyrannies. In the UK we >have about 50 police departments, for 65 million people. The US has more than >15000. And the US elects judges and chiefs of police, so sometimes people >don't get justice, they get law and plenty of it. It's noticeable that road >signage in the UK is designed to get people safely from A to B, whereas in the >US it's designed to raise revenue. And then there are quotas - conspiracies >betwen a city Mayor and the Chief of Police to fill the City's coffers; this >is just a form of legalised banditry.

    There is some truth in that. Perhaps THE most hated lowest-level
    control structure are so-called "neighborhood associations". These
    are tiny-headed people who are suddenly infused with a big
    meth injection of micromanging local power over others. If your
    flowers are an inch too high they will attack. They really hit
    people quite literally where they live - and a surprising amount of
    new housing falls under the control of said petty tyrants. There
    is something, perhaps intentionally, USSR/Stasi about that ....

    As for the number of police organizations, remember tht the USA
    is physically LARGE - plus the police mentality needed for large
    urban areas is inappropriate for farm/ranch/mining areas that
    are wide-open spaces.

    Now in our larger cities, you ARE likely to see several layers
    of political and police authority - NYC is a fair example. Still,
    again, it has something to do with size and population and,
    in NYCs case, ethnic and historical factors. Brooklyn does
    NOT get to tell Queens how to do things. However London
    is similarly partitioned ......

    As for "banditry" ... are you referring to "speed trap towns"
    or something ? For the most part, transit in the USA is
    dead practical - has to be because of the vast distances.
    I think there are single counties in Texas and Wyoming
    and certainly Alaska that could swallow up Scotland.

    For fun, GoogleEarth a town called "Waldo" in Florida.
    "Drive" the main road coming into town, especially from
    the south. There are huge signs announcing the towns
    zero-tolerance policies towards roadway speeders ...
    which they felt they HAD to put up because it WAS a
    nefarious, highly publicized, speed trap. Their POLICIES
    did not change however until the state legislature passed
    a bill forbidding police officers to have traffic-ticket quotas -
    unofficially known as the "Waldo Bill" :-)

    I think a few towns in Louisiana have since usurped Waldo.
    Something like 60+ percent of revenue coming from fines
    and shakedowns.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to 6+@mr272x.org on Mon Mar 29 07:51:16 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 29 Mar 2021 at 05:04:09 BST, 6+Cola <6+@mr272x.org> wrote:
    As for "banditry" ... are you referring to "speed trap towns"
    or something ? For the most part, transit in the USA is
    dead practical - has to be because of the vast distances.
    I think there are single counties in Texas and Wyoming
    and certainly Alaska that could swallow up Scotland.

    I lived in the US for 12 years, and amassed two speeding tickets in that time. So I went to traffic school for a Saturday. Towards the end of one of these days, the person running the course (an off-duty San Francisco cop) asked if anyone had any questions. A little old lady said, is it true that there are quotas? The guy was quiet for a moment and then said, yes, but no one would ever admit it publicly. I didn't understand this, but eventually found out
    that what was meant was:

    1) Mayor decides the city needs more money
    2) He talks to his mate the Chief of Police (elected on the same political ticket)
    3) The Chief tells the traffic cops that for the next shift or two they all need to book, say, three sitters and three movers (people parking wrong or committing a 'moving offence' - speeding or being in the wrong lane, etc)

    So these would be minor infringements that would normally be overlooked
    because the cop would pragmatically decide that there was no danger to life, limb, property, etc. But now these people get a fine instead.

    IOW, legalised banditry.

    --
    Tim

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Mar 29 10:34:39 2021
    XPost: alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux, comp.misc
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 00:17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
    Axel Berger <Spam@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
    exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
    until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.

    True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
    fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.

    Yep but not as uncomfortable as one per square metre. That being
    said it's not at all clear that the curve flattens because the limits are actually reached, after all the fall in growth in first world countries started to be noticeable by the early 1980s (I recall billboards in France that read (translated) "France Needs Babies" some time in 1980/81). So something starts the downward curve well before real limits are hit (France was far from the most crowded or stressed country at the time).

    Still with around ten billion of us expected at peak I expect it
    will get a little tight in places.

    At the population density pandemics are not an if but a when...
    This is just a dry run


    --
    Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Mon Mar 29 10:37:47 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 08:51, TimS wrote:
    On 29 Mar 2021 at 05:04:09 BST, 6+Cola <6+@mr272x.org> wrote:
    As for "banditry" ... are you referring to "speed trap towns"
    or something ? For the most part, transit in the USA is
    dead practical - has to be because of the vast distances.
    I think there are single counties in Texas and Wyoming
    and certainly Alaska that could swallow up Scotland.

    I lived in the US for 12 years, and amassed two speeding tickets in that time.
    So I went to traffic school for a Saturday. Towards the end of one of these days, the person running the course (an off-duty San Francisco cop) asked if anyone had any questions. A little old lady said, is it true that there are quotas? The guy was quiet for a moment and then said, yes, but no one would ever admit it publicly. I didn't understand this, but eventually found out that what was meant was:

    1) Mayor decides the city needs more money
    2) He talks to his mate the Chief of Police (elected on the same political ticket)
    3) The Chief tells the traffic cops that for the next shift or two they all need to book, say, three sitters and three movers (people parking wrong or committing a 'moving offence' - speeding or being in the wrong lane, etc)

    So these would be minor infringements that would normally be overlooked because the cop would pragmatically decide that there was no danger to life, limb, property, etc. But now these people get a fine instead.

    IOW, legalised banditry.

    All government is best understood if it its regarded simply as a self legalising protection racket.

    Democracy is how you overthrow it without bloodshed, and install a new
    one that costs a bit less and protects a bit better.


    --
    Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Paul@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Mar 29 06:32:38 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 29/03/2021 00:17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
    Axel Berger <Spam@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    Fortunately population growth curves are usually sigmoid not
    exponential - they resemble exponential curves very closely right up
    until some limit starts to bite and then they flatten very quickly.

    True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up against a
    fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.

    Yep but not as uncomfortable as one per square metre. That being
    said it's not at all clear that the curve flattens because the limits are
    actually reached, after all the fall in growth in first world countries
    started to be noticeable by the early 1980s (I recall billboards in
    France
    that read (translated) "France Needs Babies" some time in 1980/81). So
    something starts the downward curve well before real limits are hit
    (France
    was far from the most crowded or stressed country at the time).

    Still with around ten billion of us expected at peak I expect it
    will get a little tight in places.

    At the population density pandemics are not an if but a when...
    This is just a dry run

    Hygiene practices make a big difference.

    How much seasonal flu is in your area right now ?
    I don't even need to look it up. It's zero.

    Paul

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Mar 29 11:24:37 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 10:37:47 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Democracy is how you overthrow it without bloodshed, and install a new
    one that costs a bit less and protects a bit better.
    __________^
    hopefully

    All too often the limited options available at election time make
    this hope faint.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From R. Mutt@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Mon Mar 29 11:44:33 2021
    XPost: comp.misc, alt.anonymous, alt.os.linux
    XPost: talk.politics.misc

    Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
    Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
    Automobiles are
    being run by software which will demand subscription fees,
    so just like personal computers they will really be only
    rented, not owned.

    I don't think I've ever rented a personal computer! Nor do I 'rent'
    the software, I don't use any proprietary operating systems.

    One day they will pass a law that only AI can drive on public roads. I bet Tesla and Google already actively lobbying this. One day you’ll have no choice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Mar 29 13:14:45 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 11:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 10:37:47 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Democracy is how you overthrow it without bloodshed, and install a new
    one that costs a bit less and protects a bit better.
    __________^
    hopefully

    All too often the limited options available at election time make
    this hope faint.

    Indeed. In the UK we had to create whole new party as none of the
    existing ones were any different.

    'two cheeks of the same arse' was not an inaccurate description

    That frightened (some of) the existing ones just enough to see a bit of movement.

    The system is biased towards 'more of the same' but if there is
    sufficient popular traction it *can* be changed


    --
    “Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

    – Ludwig von Mises

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Mar 29 16:52:12 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 10:37:47 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Democracy is how you overthrow it without bloodshed, and install a new
    one that costs a bit less and protects a bit better.
    __________^
    hopefully

    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
    In practice, there is.
    -- Yogi Berra

    All too often the limited options available at election time make
    this hope faint.

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
    -- The Who

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Mar 29 18:23:32 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 13:14:45 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/03/2021 11:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 10:37:47 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Democracy is how you overthrow it without bloodshed, and install a new
    one that costs a bit less and protects a bit better.
    __________^
    hopefully

    All too often the limited options available at election time
    make this hope faint.

    Indeed. In the UK we had to create whole new party as none of the
    existing ones were any different.

    'two cheeks of the same arse' was not an inaccurate description

    So people do you want the cheek with the fresh boil on it or the
    cheek with the make up over the scars from the forgotten boils ?

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Mar 29 18:41:23 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 18:23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 13:14:45 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/03/2021 11:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 10:37:47 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Democracy is how you overthrow it without bloodshed, and install a new >>>> one that costs a bit less and protects a bit better.
    __________^
    hopefully

    All too often the limited options available at election time
    make this hope faint.

    Indeed. In the UK we had to create whole new party as none of the
    existing ones were any different.

    'two cheeks of the same arse' was not an inaccurate description

    So people do you want the cheek with the fresh boil on it or the
    cheek with the make up over the scars from the forgotten boils ?

    A lot of British people decided that what they wanted was to administer
    a fucking great kick up the arse.

    And they did


    --
    "I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
    This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
    all women"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Mon Mar 29 18:07:26 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 29 Mar 2021 at 18:41:23 BST, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/03/2021 18:23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 13:14:45 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/03/2021 11:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 10:37:47 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Democracy is how you overthrow it without bloodshed, and install a new >>>>> one that costs a bit less and protects a bit better.
    __________^
    hopefully

    All too often the limited options available at election time
    make this hope faint.

    Indeed. In the UK we had to create whole new party as none of the
    existing ones were any different.

    'two cheeks of the same arse' was not an inaccurate description

    So people do you want the cheek with the fresh boil on it or the
    cheek with the make up over the scars from the forgotten boils ?

    A lot of British people decided that what they wanted was to administer
    a fucking great kick up the arse.

    And they did

    Yes, and I was one of them. After having some exposure to EU bureaucrats, my initial enthusiasm for the project waned and was replaced by opposition. This was in the early noughties.

    That the EU is inept, rigid, and bureaucratic has merely been confirmed by the vaccine shit-show.

    See also Jonathon Sumption's (retired Supreme Court judge) review in this week's Spectator.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to TimS on Mon Mar 29 20:15:48 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 29 Mar 2021 18:07:26 GMT
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

    On 29 Mar 2021 at 18:41:23 BST, The Natural Philosopher
    <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    A lot of British people decided that what they wanted was to
    administer a fucking great kick up the arse.

    And they did

    Yes, and I was one of them. After having some exposure to EU
    bureaucrats, my initial enthusiasm for the project waned and was
    replaced by opposition. This was in the early noughties.

    That the EU is inept, rigid, and bureaucratic has merely been
    confirmed by the vaccine shit-show.

    See also Jonathon Sumption's (retired Supreme Court judge) review in
    this week's Spectator.


    What probably tipped the balance for me was this, created in 2000
    when the EU was clearly moving in exactly the opposite direction:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisbon_Strategy

    'Its aim was to make the EU "the most competitive and dynamic
    knowledge-based economy in the world capable of sustainable economic
    growth with more and better jobs and greater social cohesion", by 2010.'

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Paul on Mon Mar 29 20:17:23 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 06:32:38 -0400
    Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

    The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 29/03/2021 00:17, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 28 Mar 2021 21:52:22 +0200
    Axel Berger <Spam@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:

    Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    Fortunately population growth curves are usually
    sigmoid not exponential - they resemble exponential curves very
    closely right up until some limit starts to bite and then they
    flatten very quickly.

    True. But when that point is reached and you live cramped up
    against a fixed limit things tend become rather uncomfortable.

    Yep but not as uncomfortable as one per square metre. That
    being said it's not at all clear that the curve flattens because
    the limits are actually reached, after all the fall in growth in
    first world countries started to be noticeable by the early 1980s
    (I recall billboards in France
    that read (translated) "France Needs Babies" some time in
    1980/81). So something starts the downward curve well before real
    limits are hit (France
    was far from the most crowded or stressed country at the time).

    Still with around ten billion of us expected at peak I expect
    it will get a little tight in places.

    At the population density pandemics are not an if but a when...
    This is just a dry run

    Hygiene practices make a big difference.

    How much seasonal flu is in your area right now ?
    I don't even need to look it up. It's zero.


    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than 'hygiene'.

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Mon Mar 29 20:58:28 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 19:07, TimS wrote:
    On 29 Mar 2021 at 18:41:23 BST, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/03/2021 18:23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 13:14:45 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/03/2021 11:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 10:37:47 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Democracy is how you overthrow it without bloodshed, and install a new >>>>>> one that costs a bit less and protects a bit better.
    __________^
    hopefully

    All too often the limited options available at election time >>>>> make this hope faint.

    Indeed. In the UK we had to create whole new party as none of the
    existing ones were any different.

    'two cheeks of the same arse' was not an inaccurate description

    So people do you want the cheek with the fresh boil on it or the
    cheek with the make up over the scars from the forgotten boils ?

    A lot of British people decided that what they wanted was to administer
    a fucking great kick up the arse.

    And they did

    Yes, and I was one of them. After having some exposure to EU bureaucrats, my initial enthusiasm for the project waned and was replaced by opposition. This was in the early noughties.

    That the EU is inept, rigid, and bureaucratic has merely been confirmed by the
    vaccine shit-show.


    Why should they be anything else? They cant be sacked.

    See also Jonathon Sumption's (retired Supreme Court judge) review in this week's Spectator.



    --
    “The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that
    the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."

    - Bertrand Russell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to Joe on Mon Mar 29 20:46:04 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than 'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along with the
    huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
    The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
    You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Mar 29 21:01:18 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 20:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than 'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along with the
    huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?

    1880?

    --
    “Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
    other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

    - John K Galbraith

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Mar 29 20:05:13 2021
    XPost: alt.politics, talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 13:14:45 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/03/2021 11:24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 10:37:47 +0100
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Democracy is how you overthrow it without bloodshed, and install a new >>>> one that costs a bit less and protects a bit better.
    __________^
    hopefully

    All too often the limited options available at election time
    make this hope faint.

    Indeed. In the UK we had to create whole new party as none of the
    existing ones were any different.

    'two cheeks of the same arse' was not an inaccurate description

    So people do you want the cheek with the fresh boil on it or the
    cheek with the make up over the scars from the forgotten boils ?

    Definitely go for the makeup. Who cares if the covered-up boils
    are far worse - at least they look pretty.

    Windows is video games for managers. -- me

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | They don't understand Microsoft
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | has stolen their car and parked
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | a taxi in their driveway.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Mayayana

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Mon Mar 29 21:07:43 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along with
    the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?


    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar size?

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Aragorn@3:770/3 to All on Mon Mar 29 22:54:26 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along
    with the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?


    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar size?

    Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease. If anything, it
    is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your immune system,
    hijacks it, and then turns it against you. Certain gene sequences of
    the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found in the HIV virus.

    I've already said it before but I guess it needs repeating: I have had
    an education in (among other things) the medical field and biology; AND
    I have had Covid-19 twice — six months apart, almost down to the day.
    I know what it did to my body, and the infection is only the start of
    the misery. The respiratory problems — which in my case were present,
    albeit only mildly — are only a side-effect of the infection.

    After your immune system has eventually defeated the virus, you're
    still left with the damage the virus did to your body. Among other
    things, it causes your blood vessels to leak, and it uses that very
    same mechanism to break down and cross the blood-brain barrier, whereby
    it causes neurological damage. This in turn will manifest in the form
    of autoimmune disorders, headaches, insomnia, brain fog and a whole
    host of other symptoms, albeit that the exact symptoms differ greatly
    per individual.

    The blood vessel leakage is also what causes the respiratory problems.
    The virus unleashes a bradykinin storm in your body. Not only does the
    leakage cause fluid to enter your lungs, but the bradykinin also causes
    a reaction with an acid that can absorb over 2'000 times its weight in
    water and becomes a gel-like goo in the process. This causes the lungs
    to fill up with the goo, with as a result that the oxygen you inhale
    cannot reach your bloodstream anymore.

    However, this specific effect also appears to be tied to genetic
    factors, such as one's blood group and the amount of — believe it or
    not — Neanderthal DNA one possesses. People with blood groups O and B
    are least affected in the respiratory department, while people with
    blood groups A and AB are most affected in that regard. Likewise, more Neanderthal DNA means that the effects of the disease will be more
    severe.

    Furthermore, apparently the SARS-CoV-2 virus doesn't get along well
    with either the influenza virus or the rhinovirus that causes the common
    cold, according to a recent study. Having the common cold or the flu —
    and most likely also your immune system's reaction to that — appears to
    form a kind of protection against Covid-19, and vice versa.

    --
    With respect,
    = Aragorn =

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Aragorn@3:770/3 to All on Mon Mar 29 23:00:27 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29.03.2021 at 20:39, Martin Gregorie scribbled:

    Flu is ANOTHER SET OF CORONAVIRUSES,

    Wrong. The influenza virus is NOT a coronavirus, and neither is the
    common cold virus. They are all three different categories of viruses.

    ° The common cold is caused by a rhinovirus.

    ° The flu is caused by an influenza virus.

    ° Covid-19 is caused by the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, the closest
    relatives of which are the original SARS virus — now called
    SARS-CoV-1 — and the MERS virus, both of which are also
    coronaviruses.


    --
    With respect,
    = Aragorn =

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Joe on Mon Mar 29 20:39:24 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 21:07:43 +0100, Joe wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100 Ahem A Rivet's Shot
    <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100 Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along with
    the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?


    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid,

    Nossir, flu is still a thing every winter, so not 'practically
    eliminated' despite having fairly effective flu vaccines. At a guess,
    since it appears to have gotten less virulent since 1918, maybe its
    simply considered to be less of an issue as its virulence decreases.

    which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar
    size?

    Whats' size got to do with it? Flu is ANOTHER SET OF CORONAVIRUSES, but a considerably less lethal group than COVID-19.


    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Mon Mar 29 22:04:35 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 21:39, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 21:07:43 +0100, Joe wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100 Ahem A Rivet's Shot
    <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100 Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along with
    the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?


    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid,

    Nossir, flu is still a thing every winter, so not 'practically
    eliminated' despite having fairly effective flu vaccines. At a guess,
    since it appears to have gotten less virulent since 1918, maybe its
    simply considered to be less of an issue as its virulence decreases.

    which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar
    size?

    Whats' size got to do with it? Flu is ANOTHER SET OF CORONAVIRUSES, but a considerably less lethal group than COVID-19.


    Er, I think, not. Colds are coronaviruses, flu is a class on its own

    --
    “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Aragorn on Mon Mar 29 22:10:09 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 22:00, Aragorn wrote:
    On 29.03.2021 at 20:39, Martin Gregorie scribbled:

    Flu is ANOTHER SET OF CORONAVIRUSES,

    Wrong. The influenza virus is NOT a coronavirus, and neither is the
    common cold virus. They are all three different categories of viruses.

    ° The common cold is caused by a rhinovirus.
    Rhino virus just means 'nasal virus'

    In fact colds are coronaviruses

    "Coronaviruses are a large family, and each has spiky proteins on their surface. Some use humans as their primary host and cause the common cold.

    "Other coronaviruses, including SARS-CoV-2, primarily infect animals.

    "Like COVID-19, Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) are caused by coronaviruses. These viruses
    also initially passed to humans from animals."

    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/coronavirus-myths-explored


    ° The flu is caused by an influenza virus.

    ° Covid-19 is caused by the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, the closest
    relatives of which are the original SARS virus — now called
    SARS-CoV-1 — and the MERS virus, both of which are also
    coronaviruses.




    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to Aragorn on Mon Mar 29 21:17:32 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29 Mar 2021 at 21:54:26 BST, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:

    On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along
    with the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?


    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which is a
    comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar size?

    Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease. If anything, it
    is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your immune system,
    hijacks it, and then turns it against you.

    What's your evidence for this statement?

    Certain gene sequences of
    the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Aragorn on Mon Mar 29 22:12:17 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 21:54, Aragorn wrote:
    On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along
    with the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?


    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which is a
    comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar size?

    Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease.

    Wrong

    If anything, it
    is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your immune system,
    hijacks it, and then turns it against you. Certain gene sequences of
    the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also found in the HIV virus.

    I've already said it before but I guess it needs repeating: I have had
    an education in (among other things) the medical field and biology;

    And yet you didnt know that the common cold is a coronavirus

    AND
    I have had Covid-19 twice — six months apart, almost down to the day.

    you have test results to prove it?

    I know what it did to my body, and the infection is only the start of
    the misery. The respiratory problems — which in my case were present, albeit only mildly — are only a side-effect of the infection.

    After your immune system has eventually defeated the virus, you're
    still left with the damage the virus did to your body. Among other
    things, it causes your blood vessels to leak, and it uses that very
    same mechanism to break down and cross the blood-brain barrier, whereby
    it causes neurological damage. This in turn will manifest in the form
    of autoimmune disorders, headaches, insomnia, brain fog and a whole
    host of other symptoms, albeit that the exact symptoms differ greatly
    per individual.

    The blood vessel leakage is also what causes the respiratory problems.
    The virus unleashes a bradykinin storm in your body. Not only does the leakage cause fluid to enter your lungs, but the bradykinin also causes
    a reaction with an acid that can absorb over 2'000 times its weight in
    water and becomes a gel-like goo in the process. This causes the lungs
    to fill up with the goo, with as a result that the oxygen you inhale
    cannot reach your bloodstream anymore.

    However, this specific effect also appears to be tied to genetic
    factors, such as one's blood group and the amount of — believe it or
    not — Neanderthal DNA one possesses. People with blood groups O and B
    are least affected in the respiratory department, while people with
    blood groups A and AB are most affected in that regard. Likewise, more Neanderthal DNA means that the effects of the disease will be more
    severe.

    Furthermore, apparently the SARS-CoV-2 virus doesn't get along well
    with either the influenza virus or the rhinovirus that causes the common cold, according to a recent study. Having the common cold or the flu —
    and most likely also your immune system's reaction to that — appears to form a kind of protection against Covid-19, and vice versa.



    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Mon Mar 29 21:54:05 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:39:24 -0000 (UTC)
    Martin Gregorie <martin@mydomain.invalid> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 21:07:43 +0100, Joe wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100 Ahem A Rivet's Shot
    <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100 Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along
    with the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?


    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid,

    Nossir, flu is still a thing every winter,

    https://www.theweek.co.uk/952092/zero-flu-cases-uk-covid-measures-suppress-seasonal-virus

    so not 'practically
    eliminated' despite having fairly effective flu vaccines. At a guess,
    since it appears to have gotten less virulent since 1918, maybe its
    simply considered to be less of an issue as its virulence decreases.

    In the UK, it kills many thousands each winter. Except the one just
    ending.


    which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of
    similar size?

    Whats' size got to do with it? Flu is ANOTHER SET OF CORONAVIRUSES,
    but a considerably less lethal group than COVID-19.

    Not 'considerably'. A bit. The original claim of 5-10% lethality
    has been drastically downgraded during the last year to about 0.3%. And
    flu viruses are a group of their own, they're not coronaviruses.

    Why are the anti-Covid measures effective against flu but not Covid?
    The article cited above claims that the anti-Covid measures have
    almost eliminated flu this winter, but it is silent as to why they
    haven't done the same for Covid.

    If the measures are almost completely effective against flu, why have
    we tolerated many thousands of deaths, sometimes tens of thousands,
    every winter in my lifetime?

    --
    Joe

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to TimS on Mon Mar 29 22:34:43 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also
    found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    A moment with Google reveals that it’s a conspiracy theory, held
    primarily by people who believe SARS-Cov-2 is synthetic.

    The genomes of both viruses are available online, so anyone who wants to believes it should be able to point directly to the supposed identical sequences.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Mon Mar 29 21:46:38 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29 Mar 2021 at 22:34:43 BST, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also
    found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    A moment with Google reveals that it’s a conspiracy theory, held
    primarily by people who believe SARS-Cov-2 is synthetic.

    The genomes of both viruses are available online, so anyone who wants to believes it should be able to point directly to the supposed identical sequences.

    Then we await the tosspot's "evidence" with interest.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Mon Mar 29 22:49:48 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
    And yet you didnt know that the common cold is a coronavirus

    Sort of. There are a couple of hundred different viruses that cause the ‘common cold’; a handful of them are indeed coronaviruses.

    For my money HCoV-OC43 is the most interesting of them. It’s a candidate (although not the only one) for the 1889-1890 pandemic, based on the
    inferred time of its initial transmission into humans and the pandemic’s similarity to COVID-19 symptoms (primarily hit the old, respiratory
    symptoms, etc). It also has a possible (although currently quite
    unclear) connection to MS.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Aragorn on Mon Mar 29 22:22:37 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 23:00:27 +0200, Aragorn wrote:

    Wrong. The influenza virus is NOT a coronavirus, and neither is the
    common cold virus. They are all three different categories of viruses.

    Fair enough - I stand corrected.

    Nonetheless Wikipedia (yeah, I know, teaat with extreme caution though IME
    and in my fields (Chemistry, IT, flight) its generally accurate due to
    some peer review. It says:

    "Coronaviruses are a group of related RNA viruses that cause diseases in mammals and birds. In humans and birds, they cause respiratory tract
    infections that can range from mild to lethal. Mild illnesses in humans
    include some cases of the common cold (which is also caused by other
    viruses, predominantly rhinoviruses), while more lethal varieties can
    cause SARS, MERS, and COVID-19. In cows and pigs they cause diarrhea,
    while in mice they cause hepatitis and encephalomyelitis."

    Is that entirely wrong?



    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jasen Betts@3:770/3 to Joe on Tue Mar 30 03:04:25 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 2021-03-29, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along with
    the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread diseases"
    campaign ?


    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar size?

    Covid has. (in several places)

    Why would size be important? (what's not how HEPA filters work)

    Covid seems more infectious, (higer R number) so by the exponential
    growth model, efforts that can eliminate 'flu can be insuffient to
    reduce covid-19.

    --
    Jasen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Aragorn@3:770/3 to All on Tue Mar 30 12:58:26 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29.03.2021 at 21:17, TimS scribbled:

    On 29 Mar 2021 at 21:54:26 BST, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:

    On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
    Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

    Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    'hygiene'.

    I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along
    with the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.

    [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread
    diseases" campaign ?


    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which
    is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar
    size?

    Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease. If
    anything, it is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your
    immune system, hijacks it, and then turns it against you.

    What's your evidence for this statement?

    Scientific research — which is just as available to you as it is to me
    — and the fact that I've had Covid-19 twice. I know perfectly well
    what it did to my body. I'm still having to deal with some of the
    consequences right now as we speak, and my last infection was six
    months ago.

    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually
    also found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    There aren't many viruses around that have those particular
    HIV-like RNA sequences I'm talking about.



    --
    With respect,
    = Aragorn =

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Aragorn@3:770/3 to The evidence of what I on Tue Mar 30 13:02:12 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29.03.2021 at 21:46, TimS scribbled:

    On 29 Mar 2021 at 22:34:43 BST, Richard Kettlewell
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually
    also found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    A moment with Google reveals that it’s a conspiracy theory, held primarily by people who believe SARS-Cov-2 is synthetic.

    The evidence of what I said is available in the report of the WHO investigation, Mr. Cynic.

    The genomes of both viruses are available online, so anyone who
    wants to believes it should be able to point directly to the
    supposed identical sequences.

    Then we await the tosspot's "evidence" with interest.

    "Tosspot", eh? I'm sorry, but I don't wish to entertain discussions
    with people so eager on pushing their politics that they have to resort
    to ad hominems. Had I seen this reply before I sent off my other one,
    then I wouldn't even have bothered.

    Have a nice life.

    --
    With respect,
    = Aragorn =

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Aragorn@3:770/3 to All on Tue Mar 30 12:53:49 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29.03.2021 at 22:22, Martin Gregorie scribbled:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 23:00:27 +0200, Aragorn wrote:

    Wrong. The influenza virus is NOT a coronavirus, and neither is the
    common cold virus. They are all three different categories of
    viruses.
    Fair enough - I stand corrected.

    Nonetheless Wikipedia (yeah, I know, teaat with extreme caution
    though IME and in my fields (Chemistry, IT, flight) its generally
    accurate due to some peer review. It says:

    "Coronaviruses are a group of related RNA viruses that cause diseases
    in mammals and birds. In humans and birds, they cause respiratory
    tract infections that can range from mild to lethal. Mild illnesses
    in humans include some cases of the common cold (which is also caused
    by other viruses, predominantly rhinoviruses), while more lethal
    varieties can cause SARS, MERS, and COVID-19. In cows and pigs they
    cause diarrhea, while in mice they cause hepatitis and
    encephalomyelitis."

    Is that entirely wrong?

    I'd say that whoever wrote that doesn't properly understand what
    they're talking about. But then again, the Covid-19 pandemic is still
    a relatively new and thus insufficiently explored phenomenon —
    insufficiently explored with regard to what was known about
    coronaviruses prior to the pandemic — and thus a lot of speculation and
    many unknowns are added to the current understanding, and perhaps even
    more importantly, how this knowledge is disseminated to the public.

    There are yet other medically related topics on Wikipedia in which the
    English pages are vague and/or incorrect compared to pages on the same
    subject in other languages. This suggests a culturally defined
    factuality bias among the members of the English-language committee
    that oversees the content. And interestingly enough, most of that bias
    appears to come from the US American side of things — pages that have
    clearly been composed by British and Canadian editors appear more
    factual and accurate.


    --
    With respect,
    = Aragorn =

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Joe@3:770/3 to Aragorn on Tue Mar 30 12:37:21 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:58:26 +0200
    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:



    There aren't many viruses around that have those particular
    HIV-like RNA sequences I'm talking about.

    I believe only one research team has reported this so far. Since the implications would be so serious, I do not believe that any other
    research establishment will find it to be true.

    --
    Joe

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Richard Kettlewell on Tue Mar 30 13:18:21 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 22:34, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also
    found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    A moment with Google reveals that it’s a conspiracy theory, held
    primarily by people who believe SARS-Cov-2 is synthetic.

    The genomes of both viruses are available online, so anyone who wants to believes it should be able to point directly to the supposed identical sequences.

    I believe we humans share many sequences with the E. Coli bacteria.
    Desperately scrabbling for my tinfoil hat, this is clearly irrefutable
    evidence of supernatural Malevolent Design.


    --
    “It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
    making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
    who pay no price for being wrong.”

    Thomas Sowell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to TimS on Tue Mar 30 12:59:04 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 22:46, TimS wrote:
    On 29 Mar 2021 at 22:34:43 BST, Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also >>>> found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    A moment with Google reveals that it’s a conspiracy theory, held
    primarily by people who believe SARS-Cov-2 is synthetic.

    The genomes of both viruses are available online, so anyone who wants to
    believes it should be able to point directly to the supposed identical
    sequences.

    Then we await the tosspot's "evidence" with interest.


    If he wants to compare DNA strings on the rpi, I recommend Suffix
    Arrays, O(1) substring matching. A really, really cool algorithm.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Tue Mar 30 13:36:10 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 29/03/2021 23:22, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 23:00:27 +0200, Aragorn wrote:

    Wrong. The influenza virus is NOT a coronavirus, and neither is the
    common cold virus. They are all three different categories of viruses.

    Fair enough - I stand corrected.

    Nonetheless Wikipedia (yeah, I know, teaat with extreme caution though IME and in my fields (Chemistry, IT, flight) its generally accurate due to
    some peer review. It says:

    "Coronaviruses are a group of related RNA viruses that cause diseases in mammals and birds. In humans and birds, they cause respiratory tract infections that can range from mild to lethal. Mild illnesses in humans include some cases of the common cold (which is also caused by other
    viruses, predominantly rhinoviruses), while more lethal varieties can
    cause SARS, MERS, and COVID-19. In cows and pigs they cause diarrhea,
    while in mice they cause hepatitis and encephalomyelitis."

    Is that entirely wrong?



    Well no. But the key element is that corona viruses and rhino viruses
    cause 'colds', corona viruses cause SARS and covid, and influenza
    viruses are somewhat different to either

    Hand waving ArtStudents may confuse COVID19 with influenza, but it wont
    stand up to close scrutiny (with an electron microscope ;-)


    --
    Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
    Mark Twain

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to All on Tue Mar 30 12:45:00 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 30 Mar 2021 at 13:18:21 BST, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/03/2021 22:34, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also >>>> found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    A moment with Google reveals that it’s a conspiracy theory, held
    primarily by people who believe SARS-Cov-2 is synthetic.

    The genomes of both viruses are available online, so anyone who wants to
    believes it should be able to point directly to the supposed identical
    sequences.

    I believe we humans share many sequences with the E. Coli bacteria. Desperately scrabbling for my tinfoil hat, this is clearly irrefutable evidence of supernatural Malevolent Design.

    Well of course we would do, as many life processes are shared by all life.

    --
    Tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Aragorn on Tue Mar 30 14:02:22 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 30/03/2021 11:58, Aragorn wrote:
    On 29.03.2021 at 21:17, TimS scribbled:

    On 29 Mar 2021 at 21:54:26 BST, Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:

    On 29.03.2021 at 21:07, Joe scribbled:

    On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:46:04 +0100
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    > On Mon, 29 Mar 2021 20:17:23 +0100
    > Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
    >
    > > Occam's Razor says that there is a simpler explanation than
    > > 'hygiene'.
    >
    > I'd guess cough etiquette[1] to be a major factor, along
    > with the huge upswing in effective hand cleansing.
    >
    > [1] Just how long ago was the "coughs and sneezes spread
    > diseases" campaign ?
    >

    So why has flu been practically eliminated, but not Covid, which
    is a comparable respiratory disease caused by a virus of similar
    size?

    Covid-19 is most definitely NOT a respiratory disease. If
    anything, it is actually comparable to AIDS in that it attacks your
    immune system, hijacks it, and then turns it against you.

    What's your evidence for this statement?

    Scientific research — which is just as available to you as it is to me
    — and the fact that I've had Covid-19 twice. I know perfectly well
    what it did to my body. I'm still having to deal with some of the consequences right now as we speak, and my last infection was six
    months ago.

    Aragorn is suffering from Boolean Thinking.

    He thinks that A is not (not-A) and there is no 'half A' and there is
    only One True Description of the world

    Of course covid is a respiratory infection. It makes you cough and have
    severe trouble breathing. So is, and does asthma. Both have more effects
    beynd that, as e.g. asthma being an overreaction by the immune system
    may also be associated with rashes, food intolerances and so on



    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually
    also found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    There aren't many viruses around that have those particular
    HIV-like RNA sequences I'm talking about.


    Said with such profound conviction...
    A is not NOT-A!

    Meanwhile, in the RealWorld™ ....we must listen to Korzybski when he
    assures us that 'the map is not the territory' or Kant when he
    postulates that the world of our ordered and language described
    perception, is not the world-in-itself. Merely an *approximate*
    description of it.

    In short what we today would call a 'model'.

    And lacking omniscience,. and from a subjective position, it can ever be
    more than an approximate model of limited applicability.

    In BooleanThinking™ we can create a paradox by simply saying A=!A
    In the real world if we try to do that with a logic gate inverter we
    will get something that ends up as halfway between true and false or
    oscillates between those states.

    People are getting more sick than usual.
    Rather more than usual are dying
    Most of these people present with respiratory problems, and fever.
    Many of those who survive seem to have long term issues of one sort or
    another. But so do people who get married.

    To sit there and state that 'Covid 19 is this, or that, or heaven
    forfend, assuredly the other' is Aragornance of the highest order. And
    attempt to force a complex situation into a OneTrueDescription™


    We have ultimately no way of knowing that OneTrueWorld™ even *exists*.
    That is a Kantian /a priori/ - and one that is increasingly challenged
    by quantum physics. Let alone that we have any hope whatsoever of
    arriving at full cognisance of it.

    What we do know is that treating covid 19 *as* a respiratory disease and hitting it with the sorts of things that work on e.g. asthma seems to
    work. "COVID 19 is a respiratory disease" IS A PRAGMATIC USEFUL (if approximate) DESCRIPTION. Like "All snakes are poisonous" it may not be entirely correct, but its better than "COVID 19 is just the flu"

    What we also are becoming aware of is that recovery is slow and not
    without issues. That may lead to an *auxiliary* description but it only
    negates "COVID 19 is a respiratory disease" in the minds of Boolean
    Thinkers, who cannot have two partial descriptions of the world coexist
    inside their tiny minds without their heads exploding.

    Well that is their problem. And we should sympathise. For the rest of us
    the world is not hard edged and clear cut, but damned fuzzy all over.
    And we are humble enough to admit that we do not know it all. And indeed
    never can.






    --
    The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
    private property.

    Karl Marx

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to TimS on Tue Mar 30 16:42:35 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    On 30/03/2021 13:45, TimS wrote:
    On 30 Mar 2021 at 13:18:21 BST, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 29/03/2021 22:34, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually also >>>>> found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    A moment with Google reveals that it’s a conspiracy theory, held
    primarily by people who believe SARS-Cov-2 is synthetic.

    The genomes of both viruses are available online, so anyone who wants to >>> believes it should be able to point directly to the supposed identical >>> sequences.

    I believe we humans share many sequences with the E. Coli bacteria.
    Desperately scrabbling for my tinfoil hat, this is clearly irrefutable
    evidence of supernatural Malevolent Design.

    Well of course we would do, as many life processes are shared by all life.

    Whoosh...

    --
    There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
    that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
    emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent renewable energy.

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  • From Richard Kettlewell@3:770/3 to Aragorn on Tue Mar 30 20:25:19 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux, talk.politics.misc

    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> writes:
    On 29.03.2021 at 21:46, TimS scribbled:
    Richard Kettlewell<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
    Aragorn <thorongil@telenet.be> wrote:
    Certain gene sequences of the SARS-CoV-2 virus' RNA are actually
    also found in the HIV virus.

    What's so surprising about that? All viruses do similar things so
    certain sequences are bound to be found in many viruses.

    A moment with Google reveals that it’s a conspiracy theory, held
    primarily by people who believe SARS-Cov-2 is synthetic.

    The evidence of what I said is available in the report of the WHO investigation, Mr. Cynic.

    If you mean https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/who-convened-global-study-of-the-origins-of-sars-cov-2
    then there is no such reference I can see. What page number?

    If you mean some other report then where is it?

    The genomes of both viruses are available online, so anyone who
    wants to believes it should be able to point directly to the
    supposed identical sequences.

    You could just tell us the exact matching sequences, of course.

    --
    https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to All on Mon Oct 25 19:09:08 2021
    XPost: alt.os.linux

    On Mon, 25 Oct 2021 18:39:31 +0100, Java Jive wrote:

    "[Think of it as|its just] evolution in action." ;-)


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

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  • From TimS@3:770/3 to A. Dumas on Wed Oct 27 08:41:09 2021
    On 27 Oct 2021 at 07:51:38 BST, "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:

    On 26-10-2021 23:06, TimS wrote:
    Unix has apropos. So I just tried "apropos remove file". This gave me three >> and a half screens-full of commands (so, some hundreds), but not including >> 'rm'.

    On MacOS (~BSD) it gives more than 20 pages because it seems to treat
    the keywords as OR-ed and "file" is ubiquitous. Two pages for just
    "apropos remove" and in both versions it includes on page two (because alphabetically) :

    My Terminal windows are nearly 100 lines long.

    --
    Tim

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  • From A. Dumas@3:770/3 to TimS on Wed Oct 27 12:28:37 2021
    On 27-10-2021 10:41, TimS wrote:
    On 27 Oct 2021 at 07:51:38 BST, "A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:

    On 26-10-2021 23:06, TimS wrote:
    Unix has apropos. So I just tried "apropos remove file". This gave me three >>> and a half screens-full of commands (so, some hundreds), but not including >>> 'rm'.

    On MacOS (~BSD) it gives more than 20 pages because it seems to treat
    the keywords as OR-ed and "file" is ubiquitous. Two pages for just
    "apropos remove" and in both versions it includes on page two (because
    alphabetically) :

    My Terminal windows are nearly 100 lines long.

    Mine 80.

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  • From Robert Riches@3:770/3 to William Unruh on Wed Nov 3 02:48:50 2021
    On 2021-11-02, William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
    On 2021-11-02, jak <nospam@please.ty> wrote:
    Il 02/11/2021 15:39, The Natural Philosopher ha scritto:
    On 02/11/2021 14:31, jak wrote:
    Il 02/11/2021 09:26, The Natural Philosopher ha scritto:
    On 01/11/2021 20:22, jak wrote:
    Forgive my lack of knowledge of the English language but it is
    precisely
    on this point that our opinions differ: if, for example, you are
    vaccinated and you touch the handle of an infected door then you will >>>>>> touch another handle that I will also touch, I will get infected
    because
    of you even if you are vaccinated.

    Exactly.

    The difference is that you who are
    vaccinated will not get sick while I, who am not, will. When I was >>>>>> young, they gave me the measles vaccine and told me that by doing so I >>>>>> would most likely not get measles. Instead now they tell me that I have >>>>>> to vaccinate otherwise other people get sick? I am really confused >>>>>> because it is not necessary to be sick to pass the infection.

    Exactly. BUT it reduces the spread. the virus on your vaccinated
    hands will not multiply in your lungs and get coughed out into
    someone unvaccinated persons face to cause them to wither and die.

    Vaccination reduces the overall world virus load.

    As well as 'protecting vulnerable people'

    The whole anti-vax thing is simply another manifestation of the
    ArtStudent™ mind that can only think in Boolean terms =  protect/does >>>>> not protect, prevents infection/does not prevent infection.

    It's a numbers game. Vaccination lowers infection rate, transmission >>>>> rate hospitalisation rate and death rate.

    which certainly indicates that the side effects are less worse than
    the disease.

    It does however, *guarantee* nothing,





    First of all I thank everyone (in this branch) for your answers and now >>>> I understand the reason for your reasoning. Here where I live (Italy)
    the media have said and reiterated that this was not an airborne virus, >>>
    Then they are probably guilty of fake news.
    Wiki:

    "COVID-19 transmits when people breathe in air contaminated by droplets
    and small airborne particles containing the virus. The risk of breathing >>> these in is highest when people are in close proximity, but they can be
    inhaled over longer distances, particularly indoors. Transmission can
    also occur if splashed or sprayed with contaminated fluids in the eyes,
    nose or mouth, and, rarely, via contaminated surfaces. People remain
    contagious for up to 20 days, and can spread the virus even if they do
    not develop symptoms"


    for this reason I have a different way of looking at the related
    problems. In any case, public administrations are very concerned with
    the people who want to vaccinate and what they don't, but they forget to >>>> manage what they can't.


    I think something got lost in translation there.???



    ...you are probably right :)

    Following the media, they talk a lot about the vaccinated and also a lot
    about those who refuse the vaccine. Unfortunately, they speak very
    little about how to behave those who cannot be vaccinated. This problem

    The problem is that those who "cannot" be vaccinated are a miniscule
    part of the population. What makes it so they cannot be vaccinated? A
    severe alergic reaction to some of the ingredents might be, but that is
    very rare. If everyone but them were vaccinated, one would have no
    worries. The virus would die out.

    "What makes it so they cannot be vaccinated?" Certain heart
    conditions, for one. A few weeks ago, an elderly man told me his
    cardiologist had told him that the "vaccine" it _WOULD_ damage
    his heart. [quotation marks mine, emphasis his and his doctor's]

    --
    Robert Riches
    spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
    (Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)
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  • From Bob Martin@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Nov 4 07:14:08 2021
    On 3 Nov 2021 at 08:30:27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03/11/2021 07:58, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 07:27:04 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    The UK is no longer in Europe?

    Correct. They took a referendum, voted to leave the EU, did so and
    went through a protracted (more than two years!) leaving negotiation
    process that ended up with essentially "no deal" and, since the start of
    this year, are no longer in the EU, leaving a messy issue around the
    Eire/Northern Ireland border.

    Did you really miss all that happening ? Did you not encounter the
    term Brexit ?

    Do you really think that the EU - a small corrupt bureaucracy founded by
    an Italian communist that gathers and redistributes taxes, and attempts
    to be a self appointed undemocratic lawmaker for 27 countries whose politicians were bribed or blackmailed into entering it - represents Europe?

    After yesterday's shenanigans in the Commons how can you accuse others
    of corruption with a straight face?
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Bob Martin on Thu Nov 4 10:50:12 2021
    On 04/11/2021 07:14, Bob Martin wrote:
    On 3 Nov 2021 at 08:30:27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03/11/2021 07:58, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Wed, 3 Nov 2021 07:27:04 +0000
    Pancho <Pancho.Dontmaileme@outlook.com> wrote:

    The UK is no longer in Europe?

    Correct. They took a referendum, voted to leave the EU, did so and
    went through a protracted (more than two years!) leaving negotiation
    process that ended up with essentially "no deal" and, since the start of >>> this year, are no longer in the EU, leaving a messy issue around the
    Eire/Northern Ireland border.

    Did you really miss all that happening ? Did you not encounter the
    term Brexit ?

    Do you really think that the EU - a small corrupt bureaucracy founded by
    an Italian communist that gathers and redistributes taxes, and attempts
    to be a self appointed undemocratic lawmaker for 27 countries whose
    politicians were bribed or blackmailed into entering it - represents Europe?

    After yesterday's shenanigans in the Commons how can you accuse others
    of corruption with a straight face?

    Owen Patterson is a well known critic of the corrupt green energy
    business pushed by the EU.

    Naturally he had to be 'cancelled'.



    --
    “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

    —Soren Kierkegaard
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  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to Bob Martin on Thu Nov 4 10:22:52 2021
    On 4 Nov 2021 07:14:08 GMT, Bob Martin wrote:


    After yesterday's shenanigans in the Commons how can you accuse others
    of corruption with a straight face?

    Well said!

    Things have come to a pretty pass when an ex-cabinet member with his hand
    out for 'commissions', behaviour that's explicitly forbidden for MPs,
    gets defended by the PM. The first should be expelled from Parliament and
    the second should resign.


    --
    --
    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org
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  • From Nikolaj Lazic@3:770/3 to All on Mon Dec 20 13:14:04 2021
    Dana Mon, 20 Dec 2021 23:29:16 +1100, Daniel65 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> napis'o:
    alister wrote on 20/12/21 2:50 am:
    On 19 Dec 2021 13:18:22 GMT, TimS wrote:

    On 19 Dec 2021 at 09:37:28 GMT, Daniel65
    <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

    TimS wrote on 5/11/2021 12:46 am:
    On 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39:05 GMT, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
    wrote:
    On 04/11/2021 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 03/11/2021 19:24, Java Jive wrote:

    FALSE! It represent 448m out of 746m citizens of Europe.

    How can it when not one of them ever voted for it?

    Nonsense, they vote for it every time they vote for an MEP.

    That's nothing more than the trappings of democracy; it's fool's gold >>>>> and like a mug, you think it's good.

    With the List System, candidates are selected by the party. Those at >>>>> the top of the list are pretty much guaranteed to be elected. They
    need have no contact with the public at all and cannot realistically >>>>> be gotten rid of.

    Once elected, MEPs can then *completely* ignore the public until next >>>>> time.

    Gee, that sound just like any elected Parliament that I've heard of!!

    Any parliament where its MPs are elected via a list system, yes. With
    FPTP you can vote an individual out. And of course, with the EU
    parliament, there are no by-elections. If someone dies or resigns, the
    next one on the list gets the nod automatically. How's that for
    democracy!

    FPTP needs to be replaced but the only sensible option is Single
    Transferable Vote
    if no candidate has a majority then the lowest candidate is removed &
    their votes added to the 2nd choice candidate of each voter - repeat as
    necessary (it may need a 3rd choice etc depending on the number of
    candidates).

    Hmm! Here in Australia, we call that "First Past The Post"!

    And "FPTP" is acronim for...? :)
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  • From Nikolaj Lazic@3:770/3 to All on Sat Dec 25 00:22:57 2021
    Dana Fri, 24 Dec 2021 21:09:24 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> napis'o:
    On 24/12/2021 18:09, Axel Berger wrote:

    Java Jive wrote:

    On 24/12/2021 08:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    I have a first class honours degree in electrical engineering

    I have a 1st Class Honours Degree in Mathematics & Computing,

    In German we have a word for that: "Schwanzvergleich".

    Translates literally as "tail comparison", so I presume the vernacular
    would be "arse comparison" :-)


    No... "dick comparison"
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