• Financial inversion?

    From gareth evans@3:770/3 to All on Fri May 26 14:19:21 2023
    In 1972 as a raw graduate my starting salary was £1320 pa
    and a bare bones PDP11/20 (with no I/O periphals)
    was over £5K, ISTR nearer £10K

    but now

    starting salaries are £30K+ pa and the equivalent,
    or better, processing power in a RPi Pico is £5.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From A. Dumas@3:770/3 to gareth evans on Fri May 26 16:04:06 2023
    On 26-05-2023 15:19, gareth evans wrote:
    In 1972 as a raw graduate my starting salary was £1320 pa
    and a bare bones PDP11/20 (with no I/O periphals)
    was over £5K, ISTR nearer £10K

    but now

    starting salaries are £30K+ pa and the equivalent,
    or better, processing power in a RPi Pico is £5.

    This doesn't affect your salary to processing power comparison but the
    starting salary has "only" doubled: £1320 in 1972 is £14,585.20 now, according to https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From gareth evans@3:770/3 to yeti on Fri May 26 14:54:53 2023
    On 26/05/2023 14:25, yeti wrote:
    But the PiPiCo isn't even able to run her own C compiler!
    It is far less useful than the PDP was back then.


    C did not exist in 1972

    But are you sure about that, for I did have the
    Zorland C compiler that ran under MSDOS?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From A. Dumas@3:770/3 to yeti on Fri May 26 16:09:30 2023
    On 26-05-2023 15:25, yeti wrote:
    But the PiPiCo isn't even able to run her own C compiler!
    It is far less useful than the PDP was back then.


    But what is "her own C compiler"? It can certainly run *a* C compiler,
    even in a shell, with a file system and vi: https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=336843

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From yeti@3:770/3 to All on Fri May 26 14:20:19 2023
    Ask Wiki-Peter:

    C was originally developed at Bell Labs by Ritchie between 1972 and
    1973.

    --
    Take Back Control! -- Mesh The Planet!
    Do you GNUS too? -- Stop worrying about spam and start to score.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From yeti@3:770/3 to All on Fri May 26 13:25:13 2023
    But the PiPiCo isn't even able to run her own C compiler!
    It is far less useful than the PDP was back then.

    --
    Take Back Control! -- Mesh The Planet!
    Do you GNUS too? -- Stop worrying about spam and start to score.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From yeti@3:770/3 to All on Fri May 26 14:20:52 2023
    Ask Wiki-Peter:

    C was originally developed at Bell Labs by Ritchie between 1972 and
    1973.

    (But I mentioned C in the sentence with the PiPiCo...)

    --
    Take Back Control! -- Mesh The Planet!
    Do you GNUS too? -- Stop worrying about spam and start to score.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From gareth evans@3:770/3 to A. Dumas on Fri May 26 22:28:28 2023
    On 26/05/2023 15:04, A. Dumas wrote:
    On 26-05-2023 15:19, gareth evans wrote:
    In 1972 as a raw graduate my starting salary was £1320 pa
    and a bare bones PDP11/20 (with no I/O periphals)
    was over £5K, ISTR nearer £10K

    but now

    starting salaries are £30K+ pa and the equivalent,
    or better, processing power in a RPi Pico is £5.

    This doesn't affect your salary to processing power comparison but the starting salary has "only" doubled: £1320 in 1972 is £14,585.20 now, according to https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator



    Yes, the one aspect of the Labour Party in government that affects all
    of us is that a pound is now only worth a shilling.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From A. Dumas@3:770/3 to gareth evans on Sat May 27 11:09:35 2023
    On 26-05-2023 23:28, gareth evans wrote:
    Yes, the one aspect of the Labour Party in government that affects all
    of us is that a pound is now only worth a shilling.

    Tory scum moron,

    Those numbers mostly just follow international trends. Labour and Tory
    both did sometimes a little better, sometimes a little worse than the EU/USA/World: https://i.imgur.com/dD65VU9.png

    From https://www.worlddata.info/europe/united-kingdom/inflation-rates.php

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From nev young@3:770/3 to gareth evans on Sun May 28 09:29:54 2023
    On 26/05/2023 14:19, gareth evans wrote:
    In 1972 as a raw graduate my starting salary was £1320 pa
    and a bare bones PDP11/20 (with no I/O periphals)
    was over £5K, ISTR nearer £10K

    but now

    starting salaries are £30K+ pa and the equivalent,
    or better, processing power in a RPi Pico is £5.

    That's the greasy slope of inflation.
    Tell me Moore, Tell me Moore.

    --
    Nev
    It causes me a great deal of regret and remorse
    that so many people are unable to understand what I write.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to gareth evans on Sun May 28 12:44:43 2023
    On Fri, 26 May 2023 14:19:21 +0100
    gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

    In 1972 as a raw graduate my starting salary was £1320 pa
    and a bare bones PDP11/20 (with no I/O periphals)
    was over £5K, ISTR nearer £10K

    but now

    starting salaries are £30K+ pa and the equivalent,
    or better, processing power in a RPi Pico is £5.

    Now if only we could achieve a thousandth of that reduction in the costs of food and energy production.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Charlie Gibbs on Sun May 28 19:09:45 2023
    On 28/05/2023 18:57, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
    On 2023-05-28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 26 May 2023 14:19:21 +0100
    gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

    In 1972 as a raw graduate my starting salary was £1320 pa
    and a bare bones PDP11/20 (with no I/O periphals)
    was over £5K, ISTR nearer £10K

    but now

    starting salaries are £30K+ pa and the equivalent,
    or better, processing power in a RPi Pico is £5.

    Now if only we could achieve a thousandth of that reduction in the
    costs of food and energy production.

    And, better still, pass some of that reduction along to consumers
    rather than giving it all to shareholders of the distribution companies.

    I made slightly more money on my Shell shares than I lost due to
    exaggerated oil and electricity prices.


    --
    Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
    name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
    or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
    logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
    the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
    face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

    Ayn Rand.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Charlie Gibbs@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun May 28 17:57:29 2023
    On 2023-05-28, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 26 May 2023 14:19:21 +0100
    gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

    In 1972 as a raw graduate my starting salary was £1320 pa
    and a bare bones PDP11/20 (with no I/O periphals)
    was over £5K, ISTR nearer £10K

    but now

    starting salaries are £30K+ pa and the equivalent,
    or better, processing power in a RPi Pico is £5.

    Now if only we could achieve a thousandth of that reduction in the costs of food and energy production.

    And, better still, pass some of that reduction along to consumers
    rather than giving it all to shareholders of the distribution companies.

    --
    /~\ Charlie Gibbs | You can't save the earth
    \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | unless you're willing to
    X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | make other people sacrifice.
    / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Dogbert the green consultant

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to A. Dumas on Tue May 30 21:31:34 2023
    On 27/05/2023 10:09, A. Dumas wrote:
    On 26-05-2023 23:28, gareth evans wrote:
    Yes, the one aspect of the Labour Party in government that affects all
    of us is that a pound is now only worth a shilling.

    Tory scum moron,

    None of that here, thank you.

    ---druck

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to druck on Wed May 31 10:03:24 2023
    On 30/05/2023 21:31, druck wrote:
    On 27/05/2023 10:09, A. Dumas wrote:
    On 26-05-2023 23:28, gareth evans wrote:
    Yes, the one aspect of the Labour Party in government that affects all
    of us is that a pound is now only worth a shilling.

    Tory scum moron,

    None of that here, thank you.

    ---druck

    The chief function of Marxism, and by definition the Labour party, is to
    teach people how to feel justified in indulging in their most negative
    emotions 'because They Really Are Doing It to You'.

    The real scum are the Angela Rayners of this world. But like the
    intellectual children that they are, we forgive them because they "know
    not what they do".

    --
    "Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
    always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

    Margaret Thatcher

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From gareth evans@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Wed May 31 11:14:32 2023
    On 31/05/2023 10:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The chief function of Marxism, and by definition the Labour party, is to teach people how to feel justified in indulging in their most negative emotions 'because They Really Are Doing It to You'.

    The best way to improve the lot of the untermensch, untouchables,
    working class and hoi polloi is for developmental entrepreneurs to
    be the leaders and to
    feather their own nests by improving the lot of the human race in
    general.

    Kings queens, lords, ladies and their ilk are not such leaders but
    are destructive parasites.

    The socialists get it wrong by dragging everybody down.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to gareth evans on Wed May 31 11:59:21 2023
    On Wed, 31 May 2023 11:14:32 +0100
    gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:


    The best way to improve the lot of the untermensch, untouchables,
    working class and hoi polloi is for developmental entrepreneurs to
    be the leaders and to
    feather their own nests by improving the lot of the human race in
    general.

    Kings queens, lords, ladies and their ilk are not such leaders but
    are destructive parasites.

    I have listened to more than one member of the British aristocracy
    make almost word for word that argument with nobility where you have "developmental entrepreneurs". It is the standard justification for the existence of a privileged group, no matter who is in that group.

    I don't believe there has ever been a society without a privileged group so they're probably something we have to accept.

    A quick look at history will reveal that the privileged group has always been split between parasites and benefactors the former being the
    price we pay for the existence of the latter. A useful contribution would
    be a way to influence the ratio and encourage benefactors. I don't know of
    one but using heredity as the entry mechanism certainly wasn't one.

    The currently popular one is of course the ability to amass money,
    it seems like it ought to be better but there are so many unproductive ways
    to amass money.

    The socialists get it wrong by dragging everybody down.

    The important thing IMHO is to restrain the excesses at both ends,
    we can as easily afford cushions at the bottom as we can feathers at the
    top.

    Anyone can be unlucky enough to wind up at the bottom no matter
    how able. Some can never find a way up some give up trying, we can afford to
    be gentle to them and we should because there's one thing the Christians got right "There but for the grace of god go I". Replace "the grace of god"
    with "a bit of luck" if you prefer it's still true.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From A. Dumas@3:770/3 to gareth evans on Wed May 31 13:30:58 2023
    On 31-05-2023 12:14, gareth evans wrote:
    the lot of the untermensch

    Ah, it's worse than I thought.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to gareth evans on Wed May 31 13:31:39 2023
    On 31/05/2023 11:14, gareth evans wrote:
    On 31/05/2023 10:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The chief function of Marxism, and by definition the Labour party, is to
    teach people how to feel justified in indulging in their most negative
    emotions 'because They Really Are Doing It to You'.

    The best way to improve the lot of the untermensch, untouchables,
    working class and hoi polloi is for developmental entrepreneurs to
    be the leaders and to
    feather their own nests by improving the lot of the human race in
    general.

    Not sure that that always works, especially in a post modern society

    Kings queens, lords, ladies and their ilk are not such leaders but
    are destructive parasites.

    I am more sanguine. In England if you visit an ex royal Tudor residence,
    once you see the lack of central heating, and the shit down a pipe to
    the outside en suite toilets., you realise that they were in fact the
    pioneers of the affluent lifetstyle. They set the example of what it
    meant to 'live like a king' and by an large today we all do.

    The socialists get it wrong by dragging everybody down.

    Socialists always get everything wrong. They get carried away by
    adherence to faux principles and impossible ideals.

    The utterly stupid idea that we are all the same, and everyone should
    e.g. receive the same education and pay levels, regardless of aptitude
    and competence, would, taken to its ultimate conclusion, have deaf dumb
    and blind idiots doing brain surgery



    --
    Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
    too dark to read.

    Groucho Marx

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us@3:770/3 to gareth evans on Wed May 31 23:32:21 2023
    gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On 31/05/2023 10:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    The chief function of Marxism, and by definition the Labour party, is to
    teach people how to feel justified in indulging in their most negative
    emotions 'because They Really Are Doing It to You'.

    The best way to improve the lot of the untermensch, untouchables,
    working class and hoi polloi is for developmental entrepreneurs to
    be the leaders and to
    feather their own nests by improving the lot of the human race in
    general.

    Kings queens, lords, ladies and their ilk are not such leaders but
    are destructive parasites.

    The socialists get it wrong by dragging everybody down.

    Dragging everybody down is about all that socialists can do. Winston
    Churchill said it better than anybody:

    "Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the
    gospel of envy."

    "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

    "I do not at all wonder that British youth is in revolt against the morbid doctrine that nothing matters but the equal sharing of miseries, that what
    used to be called the 'submerged tenth' can only be rescued by bringing the other nine-tenths down to their level...”

    --
    _/_
    / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
    (IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
    \_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Michael J. Mahon@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Jun 3 19:34:47 2023
    Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
    On Wed, 31 May 2023 11:14:32 +0100
    gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:


    The best way to improve the lot of the untermensch, untouchables,
    working class and hoi polloi is for developmental entrepreneurs to
    be the leaders and to
    feather their own nests by improving the lot of the human race in
    general.

    Kings queens, lords, ladies and their ilk are not such leaders but
    are destructive parasites.

    I have listened to more than one member of the British aristocracy
    make almost word for word that argument with nobility where you have "developmental entrepreneurs". It is the standard justification for the existence of a privileged group, no matter who is in that group.

    I don't believe there has ever been a society without a privileged group so they're probably something we have to accept.

    A quick look at history will reveal that the privileged group has always been split between parasites and benefactors the former being the price we pay for the existence of the latter. A useful contribution would
    be a way to influence the ratio and encourage benefactors. I don't know of one but using heredity as the entry mechanism certainly wasn't one.

    The currently popular one is of course the ability to amass money,
    it seems like it ought to be better but there are so many unproductive ways to amass money.

    The socialists get it wrong by dragging everybody down.

    The important thing IMHO is to restrain the excesses at both ends,
    we can as easily afford cushions at the bottom as we can feathers at the
    top.

    Anyone can be unlucky enough to wind up at the bottom no matter
    how able. Some can never find a way up some give up trying, we can afford to be gentle to them and we should because there's one thing the Christians got right "There but for the grace of god go I". Replace "the grace of god"
    with "a bit of luck" if you prefer it's still true.


    Well said!

    --
    -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)