• Auro Run A Script In Terminal MOde On Boot

    From Dr Stephen Strange@3:770/3 to All on Tue Oct 31 09:29:19 2023
    I am running Bookworm Lite on a Rspberry Pi Zero 2 W

    I have written a python script to display the output from my Solar
    Panels. The script works well.

    How do I get the Pi to run this script on boot and display it on the
    screen ie in a form of Kiosk Mode I suppose?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Dr Stephen Strange@3:770/3 to R.Wieser on Tue Oct 31 09:57:35 2023
    R.Wieser wrote:
    Stephen,

    Pick one :

    https://www.dexterindustries.com/howto/run-a-program-on-your-raspberry-pi-at-startup/

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    Many thanks

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From R.Wieser@3:770/3 to All on Tue Oct 31 10:52:00 2023
    Stephen,

    Pick one :

    https://www.dexterindustries.com/howto/run-a-program-on-your-raspberry-pi-at-startup/

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Dr Stephen Strange on Mon Nov 6 23:40:34 2023
    On 10/31/23 5:57 AM, Dr Stephen Strange wrote:
    R.Wieser wrote:
    Stephen,

    Pick one :

    https://www.dexterindustries.com/howto/run-a-program-on-your-raspberry-pi-at-startup/


    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    Many thanks

    Be aware of the limitations of root-level autostarts
    however - esp for "graphical" apps. When a user gets
    fully logged in there is a "screen" on which all the
    graphical stuff can be displayed. However if using
    root crontab or a number of other tricks they run
    early, BEFORE the individual user. There's no screen.

    Recently wanted a user to autologin - easy - and then
    for a specific python script to run. Worked on a Pi3,
    but NOT on a Pi4 ... very strange. All the usual
    tricks ... /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart ...
    did NOT work. Couldn't even get to start from .profile
    or .bashrc

    Find my other recent thread about how to get around
    this odd Pi4+Bookworm issue.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to All on Thu Nov 9 23:38:54 2023
    On 11/6/23 11:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 10/31/23 5:57 AM, Dr Stephen Strange wrote:
    R.Wieser wrote:
    Stephen,

    Pick one :

    https://www.dexterindustries.com/howto/run-a-program-on-your-raspberry-pi-at-startup/


    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    Many thanks

      Be aware of the limitations of root-level autostarts
      however - esp for "graphical" apps. When a user gets
      fully logged in there is a "screen" on which all the
      graphical stuff can be displayed. However if using
      root crontab or a number of other tricks they run
      early, BEFORE the individual user. There's no screen.

      Recently wanted a user to autologin - easy - and then
      for a specific python script to run. Worked on a Pi3,
      but NOT on a Pi4 ... very strange. All the usual
      tricks ... /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart ...
      did NOT work. Couldn't even get to start from .profile
      or .bashrc

      Find my other recent thread about how to get around
      this odd Pi4+Bookworm issue.

    Followup -

    The failure of /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
    appears to be linked to use of the Wayland display system.
    Switching back to X11 it all works like it used to.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Martin Gregorie@3:770/3 to All on Fri Nov 10 10:59:59 2023
    On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 23:38:54 -0500, 56d.1152 wrote:

    On 11/6/23 11:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 10/31/23 5:57 AM, Dr Stephen Strange wrote:
    R.Wieser wrote:
    Stephen,

    Pick one :

    https://www.dexterindustries.com/howto/run-a-program-on-your- raspberry-pi-at-startup/


    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    Many thanks

      Be aware of the limitations of root-level autostarts however - esp
      for "graphical" apps. When a user gets fully logged in there is a
      "screen" on which all the graphical stuff can be displayed. However
      if using root crontab or a number of other tricks they run early,
      BEFORE the individual user. There's no screen.

      Recently wanted a user to autologin - easy - and then for a
      specific python script to run. Worked on a Pi3,
      but NOT on a Pi4 ... very strange. All the usual tricks ...
      /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart ...
      did NOT work. Couldn't even get to start from .profile or .bashrc

      Find my other recent thread about how to get around this odd
      Pi4+Bookworm issue.

    Followup -

    The failure of /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart appears
    to be linked to use of the Wayland display system. Switching back to
    X11 it all works like it used to.

    Follow-up to your follow-up

    I trust that you've also posted a bug report to https://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianBugs


    --

    Martin | martin at
    Gregorie | gregorie dot org

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Elvidge@3:770/3 to All on Fri Nov 10 11:47:33 2023
    On 10/11/2023 04:38, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/6/23 11:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 10/31/23 5:57 AM, Dr Stephen Strange wrote:
    R.Wieser wrote:
    Stephen,

    Pick one :

    https://www.dexterindustries.com/howto/run-a-program-on-your-raspberry-pi-at-startup/


    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    Many thanks

    Be aware of the limitations of root-level autostarts
    however - esp for "graphical" apps. When a user gets
    fully logged in there is a "screen" on which all the
    graphical stuff can be displayed. However if using
    root crontab or a number of other tricks they run
    early, BEFORE the individual user. There's no screen.

    Recently wanted a user to autologin - easy - and then
    for a specific python script to run. Worked on a Pi3,
    but NOT on a Pi4 ... very strange. All the usual
    tricks ... /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart ...
    did NOT work. Couldn't even get to start from .profile
    or .bashrc

    Find my other recent thread about how to get around
    this odd Pi4+Bookworm issue.

    Followup -

    The failure of /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
    appears to be linked to use of the Wayland display system.
    Switching back to X11 it all works like it used to.



    No. It's linked to the fact that Wayland doesn't use LXDE but wayfire
    and wf-panel-pi.


    --
    Chris Elvidge, England
    I WILL NOT GO NEAR THE KINDERGARTEN TURTLE

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Martin Gregorie on Sat Nov 11 00:09:08 2023
    On 11/10/23 5:59 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 23:38:54 -0500, 56d.1152 wrote:

    On 11/6/23 11:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 10/31/23 5:57 AM, Dr Stephen Strange wrote:
    R.Wieser wrote:
    Stephen,

    Pick one :

    https://www.dexterindustries.com/howto/run-a-program-on-your-
    raspberry-pi-at-startup/


    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    Many thanks

      Be aware of the limitations of root-level autostarts however - esp
      for "graphical" apps. When a user gets fully logged in there is a
      "screen" on which all the graphical stuff can be displayed. However >>>   if using root crontab or a number of other tricks they run early,
      BEFORE the individual user. There's no screen.

      Recently wanted a user to autologin - easy - and then for a
      specific python script to run. Worked on a Pi3,
      but NOT on a Pi4 ... very strange. All the usual tricks ...
      /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart ...
      did NOT work. Couldn't even get to start from .profile or .bashrc

      Find my other recent thread about how to get around this odd
      Pi4+Bookworm issue.

    Followup -

    The failure of /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart appears
    to be linked to use of the Wayland display system. Switching back to
    X11 it all works like it used to.

    Follow-up to your follow-up

    I trust that you've also posted a bug report to https://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianBugs


    Nope. It's clearly a Wayland issue - one of MANY.

    NOT a 'Pi" issue per-se. Almost not a Deb issue,
    except that Deb is kinda pushing Wayland.

    Wayland has had a LONG time - but it's seriously
    incompatible with vast numbers of existing apps
    and techniques at the high and low levels.

    IMHO, only those who NEED the "speed" - and it's
    not THAT much better - like for stupid games should
    think about Wayland. Everyone else, stick to X11.

    Some use Linux for "fun" - and that's fine so far
    as it goes. However the biggest and most important
    use for Linux is for SERIOUS BUSINESS ... like
    keeping the whole hidden infrastructure going.
    IBM didn't buy M$, it bought RHEL. That's where
    the Real Stuff is happening, the LiniVerse.

    And yea, the BSDs are maybe even better at some
    stuff, esp 'security' and overall 'solidness' - but
    are also behind the curve in some important ways too.
    However, if I had to build a whole new corporate
    system NOW ... I'd use OpenBSD as the foundation.

    LONG LONG back I found Red Hat on the software
    shelf at WalMart (yes, they had that). A bunch
    of 5 1/4 floppies were in there. After a
    few days of messing around and downloading a
    few things over dial-up, I actually got "X" and
    the keyboard/mouse to work - and was happy.
    However, other than being "Not Windows" it
    didn't DO much of interest - so I ignored it.

    A couple years later I found the green/white
    SUSE LINUX box on a shelf (Best Buy ?) and
    it was a CD. It was drastically easier to
    install and had a much more interesting
    selection of apps. NEXT to it on the shelf
    was a very cheap box containing Oracle DB,
    ported to Linux. NOW I was much more interested.

    Kinda never went back after that. SUSE was
    a serious supp, eventually replacement, for
    more and more Winders Infrastructure stuff.

    Alas, of late, OpenSUSE has kinda gone downhill.
    It's no longer the "Cadillac System" it used
    to be - I think a result of the IBM buyout of
    RHEL. It's been the DebiVerse thereafter - for now.
    Depends on how STUPID Deb gets with STUPID changes.

    Yea, yea, X11 *is* a kinda complicated mess at
    this point. However it's extremely WELL DOCUMENTED
    and it WORKS with everything. Sometimes it's better
    to stick with the Devil You Know.

    Now if you're doing "headless", non-GUI, uses of
    Linux ... pure servers and such ... then the "X"/
    Wayland thing is of almost zero interest. I'd
    suggest staying away from the RHEL derivatives
    because you're now essentially beta-testers
    for RHEL instead of fully with it. Deb is still
    quite good for "pure", though NetworkManager
    makes me wonder.

    Arch derivs are good - though the package/ports
    system IS unnecessarily weird. Slack IS still out
    there too. The BSDs remain strong/safe competitors
    for certain kinds of "servers" too - and more
    diversity is being seen in that universe.
    "Dragonfly" is a fairly nice GUI/Desktop BSD,
    gotta admit, and there are a few competitors now.

    And there's always the infamously-difficult Plan-9 :-)
    DID get it to do SOME useful stuff, after a lot of
    effort ........

    HOPING for a modernized VMS ... it was WAY ahead
    of it's time ! Still have a 300+ page, small-print,
    manual ......

    Oops ... too much ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Chris Elvidge on Sat Nov 11 00:22:42 2023
    On 11/10/23 6:47 AM, Chris Elvidge wrote:
    On 10/11/2023 04:38, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/6/23 11:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 10/31/23 5:57 AM, Dr Stephen Strange wrote:
    R.Wieser wrote:
    Stephen,

    Pick one :

    https://www.dexterindustries.com/howto/run-a-program-on-your-raspberry-pi-at-startup/


    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    Many thanks

       Be aware of the limitations of root-level autostarts
       however - esp for "graphical" apps. When a user gets
       fully logged in there is a "screen" on which all the
       graphical stuff can be displayed. However if using
       root crontab or a number of other tricks they run
       early, BEFORE the individual user. There's no screen.

       Recently wanted a user to autologin - easy - and then
       for a specific python script to run. Worked on a Pi3,
       but NOT on a Pi4 ... very strange. All the usual
       tricks ... /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart ...
       did NOT work. Couldn't even get to start from .profile
       or .bashrc

       Find my other recent thread about how to get around
       this odd Pi4+Bookworm issue.

       Followup -

       The failure of /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
       appears to be linked to use of the Wayland display system.
       Switching back to X11 it all works like it used to.



    No. It's linked to the fact that Wayland doesn't use LXDE but wayfire
    and wf-panel-pi.

    That's part of the issue - very much. Thing IS that Wayland
    isn't - and IMHO will NEVER be - really Ready For Prime Time.
    It has a *niche* - mostly "gamers" - but for extreme compatibility
    with All That Has Come Before you should stick to X11.

    You CAN use Linux for "games" - but the 99% Real World use
    is NOT for "games" but for The Infrastructure. If you're
    doing GUI, stick with X11 for max compatibility. If you're
    doing "headless"/non-gui, servers, then it barely matters.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to 56d.1152@ztq9.net on Sat Nov 11 09:06:21 2023
    On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 00:09:08 -0500
    "56d.1152" <56d.1152@ztq9.net> wrote:

    LONG LONG back I found Red Hat on the software
    shelf at WalMart (yes, they had that). A bunch
    of 5 1/4 floppies were in there. After a
    few days of messing around and downloading a
    few things over dial-up, I actually got "X" and
    the keyboard/mouse to work - and was happy.
    However, other than being "Not Windows" it
    didn't DO much of interest - so I ignored it.

    Around the same time (perhaps a little earlier) I found SLS for
    sale on floppies. I had been a unix developer for several years at that
    time and was very happy to have a unix workstation at home. Windows was of
    no interest to me - I was seriously disgusted when it first appeared and I found it incapable of running multiple DOS applications in parallel - after
    all DesqView could! I soon found FreeBSD which lacked all of the
    shortcomings of early Linux (the original TCP stack was crap!) and have
    been using it ever since - for the last thirty years it has failed to let
    me down or piss me off. Windows lasts less than thirty minutes before doing
    one or both - Linux lasts longer if the installation doesn't drive me
    demented (there's a Linux VM that I use for a handful of applications I
    can't be bothered to make work under compatibility) - but nothing has had
    the staying power of FreeBSD.

    I'm really not sure in which ways it is behind the curve - but not
    in any ways that have ever mattered to me.

    For work I use a Macbook (they're paying) - it handles the MS
    orifice stuff perfectly well and provides a POSIX compliant shell.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Sat Nov 11 10:45:51 2023
    On 11/11/2023 05:09, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/10/23 5:59 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Nov 2023 23:38:54 -0500, 56d.1152 wrote:

    On 11/6/23 11:40 PM, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 10/31/23 5:57 AM, Dr Stephen Strange wrote:
    R.Wieser wrote:
    Stephen,

    Pick one :

    https://www.dexterindustries.com/howto/run-a-program-on-your-
    raspberry-pi-at-startup/


    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    Many thanks

        Be aware of the limitations of root-level autostarts however - esp >>>>     for "graphical" apps. When a user gets fully logged in there is a >>>>     "screen" on which all the graphical stuff can be displayed. However >>>>     if using root crontab or a number of other tricks they run early, >>>>     BEFORE the individual user. There's no screen.

        Recently wanted a user to autologin - easy - and then for a
        specific python script to run. Worked on a Pi3,
        but NOT on a Pi4 ... very strange. All the usual tricks ...
        /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart ...
        did NOT work. Couldn't even get to start from .profile or .bashrc >>>>
        Find my other recent thread about how to get around this odd
        Pi4+Bookworm issue.

        Followup -

        The failure of /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart appears >>>     to be linked to use of the Wayland display system. Switching back to >>>     X11 it all works like it used to.

    Follow-up to your follow-up

    I trust that you've also posted a bug report to
    https://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianBugs


      Nope. It's clearly a Wayland issue - one of MANY.

      NOT a 'Pi" issue per-se. Almost not a Deb issue,
      except that Deb is kinda pushing Wayland.

      Wayland has had a LONG time - but it's seriously
      incompatible with vast numbers of existing apps
      and techniques at the high and low levels.

      IMHO, only those who NEED the "speed" - and it's
      not THAT much better - like for stupid games should
      think about Wayland. Everyone else, stick to X11.

      Some use Linux for "fun" - and that's fine so far
      as it goes. However the biggest and most important
      use for Linux is for SERIOUS BUSINESS ... like
      keeping the whole hidden infrastructure going.
      IBM didn't buy M$, it bought RHEL. That's where
      the Real Stuff is happening, the LiniVerse.

      And yea, the BSDs are maybe even better at some
      stuff, esp 'security' and overall 'solidness' - but
      are also behind the curve in some important ways too.
      However, if I had to build a whole new corporate
      system NOW ... I'd use OpenBSD as the foundation.

      LONG LONG back I found Red Hat on the software
      shelf at WalMart (yes, they had that). A bunch
      of 5 1/4 floppies were in there. After a
      few days of messing around and downloading a
      few things over dial-up, I actually got "X" and
      the keyboard/mouse to work - and was happy.
      However, other than being "Not Windows" it
      didn't DO much of interest - so I ignored it.

      A couple years later I found the green/white
      SUSE LINUX box on a shelf (Best Buy ?) and
      it was a CD. It was drastically easier to
      install and had a much more interesting
      selection of apps. NEXT to it on the shelf
      was a very cheap box containing Oracle DB,
      ported to Linux. NOW I was much more interested.

      Kinda never went back after that. SUSE was
      a serious supp, eventually replacement, for
      more and more Winders Infrastructure stuff.

      Alas, of late, OpenSUSE has kinda gone downhill.
      It's no longer the "Cadillac System" it used
      to be - I think a result of the IBM buyout of
      RHEL. It's been the DebiVerse thereafter - for now.
      Depends on how STUPID Deb gets with STUPID changes.

      Yea, yea, X11 *is* a kinda complicated mess at
      this point. However it's extremely WELL DOCUMENTED
      and it WORKS with everything. Sometimes it's better
      to stick with the Devil You Know.

      Now if you're doing "headless", non-GUI, uses of
      Linux ... pure servers and such ... then the "X"/
      Wayland thing is of almost zero interest. I'd
      suggest staying away from the RHEL derivatives
      because you're now essentially beta-testers
      for RHEL instead of fully with it. Deb is still
      quite good for "pure", though NetworkManager
      makes me wonder.

      Arch derivs are good - though the package/ports
      system IS unnecessarily weird. Slack IS still out
      there too. The BSDs remain strong/safe competitors
      for certain kinds of "servers" too - and more
      diversity is being seen in that universe.
      "Dragonfly" is a  fairly nice GUI/Desktop BSD,
      gotta admit, and there are a few competitors now.

      And there's always the infamously-difficult Plan-9  :-)
      DID get it to do SOME useful stuff, after a lot of
      effort ........

      HOPING for a modernized VMS ... it was WAY ahead
      of it's time ! Still have a 300+ page, small-print,
      manual ......

      Oops ... too much ?

    X11 is, like PostScript*, Systemd , and even MSDOS and Windows, a total disaster of a protocol written by ComputerScientists, who are arguably
    even worse than ArtStudents when let near a computer.

    However as the only game in town, software engineers have spent many
    lifetimes avoiding and hiding its completely unnecessary features and
    getting it's necessary ones to work, hiding its sheer ugliness under
    graphical toolkits that are almost useable.

    Like a Porsche 911, it is now a triumph of development over design.

    Stick to the roads more travelled.

    *The original Apple Laserwriter PostScript Printer cost more, and had a
    bigger CPU and more RAM than the Apple desktops that drove it.

    --
    “Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

    – Ludwig von Mises

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sat Nov 11 11:41:23 2023
    On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:45:51 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    X11 is, like PostScript*, Systemd , and even MSDOS and Windows, a total disaster of a protocol written by ComputerScientists, who are arguably
    even worse than ArtStudents when let near a computer.

    One thing X11 and PostScript in common is remarkable staying power, extensibility is one (possibly the only one) thing computer scientists tend
    to do well.

    However as the only game in town, software engineers have spent many lifetimes avoiding and hiding its completely unnecessary features and
    getting it's necessary ones to work, hiding its sheer ugliness under graphical toolkits that are almost useable.

    One thing X11 had over everything else was portability, you can run
    it on anything with sufficient (not very much) capability. The first time I
    had X11 running at home it was on an Interactive Unix for PC old enough that
    it lacked TCP/IP and shared memory which left pseudo-tty pairs as the only client server communication supported (every window a separate pair) - and
    the that was only implemented on one side on the X11R5 tape (server IIRC)
    so I had to write the other side myself.

    It took me two weeks to get a moving X on a black background, and another day to get twm and a bunch of applications up.

    Note that portability is what kept unix going from 1975 until the
    PC became the dominant server architecture, at first the PC was just yet another platform to unix system developers.

    Like a Porsche 911, it is now a triumph of development over design.

    Stick to the roads more travelled.

    Oh and if you think that PostScript is a mess for page layout then please take a good look at XSL-FO and the fun and games involved in using
    XSLT (the only language I know of where an important flow control mechanism
    is essentially COME-FROM with wildcards) to translate a markup language
    like dockbook XML into XSL-FO and the even more extreme fun and games
    involved in correctly rendering XSL-FO on a printer or even just as an
    array of pixels. It makes HTML and CSS look sane.

    By comparison troff and PostScript are wondrously straightforward
    and sensible designs.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sat Nov 11 23:03:51 2023
    On 11/11/23 6:41 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:45:51 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    X11 is, like PostScript*, Systemd , and even MSDOS and Windows, a total
    disaster of a protocol written by ComputerScientists, who are arguably
    even worse than ArtStudents when let near a computer.

    One thing X11 and PostScript in common is remarkable staying power, extensibility is one (possibly the only one) thing computer scientists tend to do well.

    Agreed. X11 is *ancient* - yet still doing serious work.
    Also, many little utils and such just EXPECT X11 ... my
    recent experience with /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
    not working was due to Wayland. Gotta put autostart in a different
    place with Wayland, and it's not quite as flexible.

    Wayland, well, let the "gamers" have it. I'm not interested
    in "games" but "infrastructure/devices". For that I want
    everything as super-compatible as possible.

    X11 *is* a mess, no question, but it WORKS WELL.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to All on Sun Nov 12 11:17:56 2023
    On 12/11/2023 04:03, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/11/23 6:41 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:45:51 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    X11 is, like PostScript*, Systemd , and even MSDOS and Windows, a total
    disaster of a protocol written by ComputerScientists, who are arguably
    even worse than ArtStudents when let near a computer.

        One thing X11 and PostScript in common is remarkable staying power, >> extensibility is one (possibly the only one) thing computer scientists
    tend
    to do well.

      Agreed. X11 is *ancient* - yet still doing serious work.
      Also, many little utils and such just EXPECT X11 ... my
      recent experience with /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
      not working was due to Wayland. Gotta put autostart in a different
      place with Wayland, and it's not quite as flexible.

      Wayland, well, let the "gamers" have it. I'm not interested
      in "games" but "infrastructure/devices". For that I want
      everything as super-compatible as possible.

      X11 *is* a mess, no question, but it WORKS WELL

    It works well because thousands of man hours have been put into it to
    *make* it work well.

    Same as systemd and PostScript. And a Porsche 911. And Windows.

    If that effort had been put into Wayland instead we would have a
    graphics interface that use way less CPU and RAM.

    But it's all too late, now. We have to make the best of a bad job.


    --
    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
    that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

    Jonathan Swift.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Nov 12 13:46:32 2023
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 11:17:56 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    If that effort had been put into Wayland instead we would have a
    graphics interface that use way less CPU and RAM.

    Perhaps, but by the time Wayland appeared most of that effort had already taken place, it would have been a long wait for a graphical
    interface, X11 dates back to 1984 while Wayland didn't turn up until 2008. Finally Wayland doesn't work over a network which is one of X11s great strengths and a feature I use quite often.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun Nov 12 15:11:50 2023
    On 12/11/2023 13:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 11:17:56 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    If that effort had been put into Wayland instead we would have a
    graphics interface that use way less CPU and RAM.

    Perhaps, but by the time Wayland appeared most of that effort had already taken place,

    I am not arguing with that.

    it would have been a long wait for a graphical
    interface, X11 dates back to 1984 while Wayland didn't turn up until 2008. Finally Wayland doesn't work over a network which is one of X11s great strengths and a feature I use quite often.


    I tried to use it and it was pants.

    --
    It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
    for the voice of the kingdom.

    Jonathan Swift

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Nov 12 16:37:25 2023
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 15:11:50 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 13:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    it would have been a long wait for a graphical
    interface, X11 dates back to 1984 while Wayland didn't turn up until
    2008. Finally Wayland doesn't work over a network which is one of X11s great strengths and a feature I use quite often.


    I tried to use it and it was pants.

    It's crap over a WAN IME (mind you I haven't tried across a WAN
    since I got FTTH) but on a LAN most applications work fine. Here's one I
    use regularly - my Calibre book repository lives in a jail (container in
    linux speak) on my NAS, so to run the GUI on my workstation I run (canned
    in a menu entry in my WM):

    ssh calibre@library -f calibre

    and up pops the perfectly responsive application window. The old way
    of permitting access to the X server directly from the host library would be even faster but very insecure. The big advantage over the remote desktop approach is that library isn't running any kind of graphical interface.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun Nov 12 21:10:40 2023
    On 12/11/2023 16:37, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 15:11:50 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 13:46, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    it would have been a long wait for a graphical
    interface, X11 dates back to 1984 while Wayland didn't turn up until
    2008. Finally Wayland doesn't work over a network which is one of X11s
    great strengths and a feature I use quite often.


    I tried to use it and it was pants.

    It's crap over a WAN IME (mind you I haven't tried across a WAN
    since I got FTTH) but on a LAN most applications work fine. Here's one I
    use regularly - my Calibre book repository lives in a jail (container in linux speak) on my NAS, so to run the GUI on my workstation I run (canned
    in a menu entry in my WM):

    ssh calibre@library -f calibre

    and up pops the perfectly responsive application window. The old way
    of permitting access to the X server directly from the host library would be even faster but very insecure. The big advantage over the remote desktop approach is that library isn't running any kind of graphical interface.

    Now try streaming video over it

    --
    “it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
    (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
    about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
    the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
    'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
    a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
    rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
    things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
    you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984.”

    Vaclav Klaus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ahem A Rivet's Shot@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Nov 12 21:49:57 2023
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:10:40 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 16:37, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    ssh calibre@library -f calibre

    and up pops the perfectly responsive application window. The
    old way of permitting access to the X server directly from the host
    library would be even faster but very insecure. The big advantage over
    the remote desktop approach is that library isn't running any kind of graphical interface.

    Now try streaming video over it

    That's not going to work well.

    --
    Steve O'Hara-Smith
    Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
    Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
    Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Sun Nov 12 22:15:20 2023
    On 11/12/23 6:17 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 12/11/2023 04:03, 56d.1152 wrote:
    On 11/11/23 6:41 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 10:45:51 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    X11 is, like PostScript*, Systemd , and even MSDOS and Windows, a total >>>> disaster of a protocol written by ComputerScientists, who are arguably >>>> even worse than ArtStudents when let near a computer.

        One thing X11 and PostScript in common is remarkable staying power, >>> extensibility is one (possibly the only one) thing computer
    scientists tend
    to do well.

       Agreed. X11 is *ancient* - yet still doing serious work.
       Also, many little utils and such just EXPECT X11 ... my
       recent experience with /home/pi/.config/lxsession/LXDE-pi/autostart
       not working was due to Wayland. Gotta put autostart in a different
       place with Wayland, and it's not quite as flexible.

       Wayland, well, let the "gamers" have it. I'm not interested
       in "games" but "infrastructure/devices". For that I want
       everything as super-compatible as possible.

       X11 *is* a mess, no question, but it WORKS WELL

    It works well because thousands of man hours have been put into it to
    *make* it work well.

    Same as systemd and PostScript. And a Porsche 911. And Windows.


    Well ... maybe not Winders .... :-)


    If that effort had been put into Wayland instead we would have a
    graphics interface that use way less CPU and RAM.

    But it's all too late, now. We have to make the best of a bad job.

    X11 isn't "bad" - it's just a long-clunked-together
    and forever-debugged display system. Yep, in THEORY,
    Wayland can be smaller/faster ... but in PRACTICE I
    just don't see it becoming 'generally useful' since
    SO many of the bits and pieces of the LiniVerse just
    ASSUME X11.

    The FIRST Linux I ever bought - RedHat off a WalMart
    shelf - had X11. I remember the low-rez base screen
    with a big "X". Took me a week to get the KB/Mouse
    working right. BUT, it WAS a GUI for Linux. Got
    SUSE a couple years later, MUCH easier to get going.
    That's when I started to dump Winders. I own NO
    Winders devices ... haven't for a LONG time now.

    Hmmm ... maybe an "AI" can go over X11 and tighten
    it up a bit ? Bound to be a lot of redundancies
    and un-optimized code in there.

    Oh, and as the HARDWARE keeps getting faster, does
    the "slower" aspect of X11 really MATTER so much ?
    The Pi4 is often at least twice as fast as the Pi3,
    and the Pi5 is reputed to be 2-3X faster than the Pi4
    for many uses.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From 56d.1152@3:770/3 to Ahem A Rivet's Shot on Sun Nov 12 22:31:32 2023
    On 11/12/23 4:49 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
    On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 21:10:40 +0000
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    On 12/11/2023 16:37, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

    ssh calibre@library -f calibre

    and up pops the perfectly responsive application window. The
    old way of permitting access to the X server directly from the host
    library would be even faster but very insecure. The big advantage over
    the remote desktop approach is that library isn't running any kind of
    graphical interface.

    Now try streaming video over it

    That's not going to work well.

    I understand that there are NO "perfect fixes" here.

    X11 has issues, Wayland has WAY more issues. Any
    Linux video stuff has issues. Win 3.11 is really
    not a viable option .....

    I'm just trying to find the "best" way to MY particular
    goal of the week. "Best" does NOT mean re-writing half
    the OS or X11 ........

    I've tried several approaches using Python/OpenCV. Too
    much buffering - which is basically impossible to turn
    off ... the designers "made a decision" long ago.

    Going around buffering by downloading cam stills with
    wget/curl to a file and then just using OpenCV for its
    handy crop/resize/display trix ... wget and curl are
    TOO SLOW plus I get way too many partial frames. NOT
    sure how Motion (usually) detects a 'complete' JPG.
    Must read 'em byte by byte ... which ain't easy from
    a remote http device.

    So ... what I was trying to get away from ... gonna
    have to use a BROWSER reading Motion streams plus
    kinda ugly. hard to tune, WebKit stuff to do the
    cropping/resizing/placement. I've used Chromium in
    the past, with a few tweaks to get past stupid
    error/debug messages. I'll just recycle the old
    web pages I'd made for Chromium a bit, and feed
    it Motion mjpeg frames directly into iframes. Kinda
    clunky, but I think it'll be the superior result.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)