• Re: What do I need to go with a Pi 4

    From Chris Green@3:770/3 to Adrian on Tue Apr 9 14:11:14 2024
    Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
    for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.

    If you're buying the Pi4 then why not go for a Pi5, there's very
    little difference in the price.


    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
    supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
    I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
    heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
    space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
    mean across that time is about 15.5C.

    I've run two Pi4 systems without heatsink or fan for a very long time
    with no issues at all. I've just looked at one of them, it's been
    running at least since May 2023. As I understand it anyway the
    system will simply slow down if it thinks it's getting too hot.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Adrian@3:770/3 to All on Tue Apr 9 13:52:54 2024
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD
    attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
    for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.

    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
    supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
    I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
    heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
    space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
    mean across that time is about 15.5C.

    TIA

    Adrian
    --
    To Reply :
    replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
    Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
    Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Adrian on Tue Apr 9 14:05:41 2024
    On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD attached to it.  The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
    for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4.  A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.

    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
    supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague.  Can
    I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
    heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ?  The
    space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
    mean across that time is about 15.5C.

    I am running a Pi4, two SSDS and a TV hat with no cooling. So far its
    OK. One of the SSDS gets a bit warm.

    The pi itself comes out well below 'temperatures of concern'


    TIA

    Adrian

    --
    In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
    In practice, there is.
    -- Yogi Berra

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  • From Jean-Pierre Kuypers@3:770/3 to bulleid@ku.gro.lioff on Tue Apr 9 15:12:32 2024
    In article (Dans l'article) <koJxMPHmoTFmFw8W@ku.gro.lloiff>, Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote (écrivait) :

    - a bigger power

    And with USB C connector !

    I get
    <https://www.bol.com/be/fr/p/leicke-raspberry-pi-4-model-b-voeding-ull-s witching-adaptor-5-1v-3a-met-officiele-koffer-rpi4-case-rw-1876751-ksa-1 5e-051300he-eu-uk-us-adapter-1-5m-kabel-met-schakelaar-tuv/9300000009400
    425/>

    - a HDMI adapter

    - for mini HDMI -> micro HDMI I get <https://www.amazon.com.be/dp/B0BRV7BXPB/ref=pe_43847721_689504491_TE_it


    -for VGA -> micro HDMI I get <https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005006115048037.html?>

    Can I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling

    I don't have nor use that.

    --
    Jean-Pierre Kuypers

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  • From David Taylor@3:770/3 to Adrian on Tue Apr 9 15:38:09 2024
    On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
    for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.

    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
    supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
    I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
    heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
    space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
    mean across that time is about 15.5C.

    TIA

    Adrian

    Adrian,

    No problem with the other suggestions.

    When you say "starting to struggle" what have you measured? Are you running out of memory, CPU power, disk I/O, or network I/O? I think it would be useful to know what exactly in your system needs changing.

    It's possible that a Pi 3B+ might be a sufficient upgrade (but can you still get them?).

    The Pi-5 creates quite a bit more heat than the Pi 4, and has some software compatibility issues, so unless you really need the 5, stick to the 4. (I have both here). If you are not running headless, the Pi 400 has a heatsink and keyboard built in. I have a couple here and have been very pleased with them. One even runs both Windows and Linux, that's using the Twister OS. It uses about 2 GB of its 4 GB memory, and averages 10-12% CPU.
    --
    Cheers,
    David
    Web: https://www.satsignal.eu

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Tue Apr 9 16:13:58 2024
    On 09/04/2024 14:11, Chris Green wrote:
    Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD
    attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
    for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.

    If you're buying the Pi4 then why not go for a Pi5, there's very
    little difference in the price.



    nearly twice the price for entry level.

    ......
    ...

    I've run two Pi4 systems without heatsink or fan for a very long time
    with no issues at all. I've just looked at one of them, it's been
    running at least since May 2023. As I understand it anyway the
    system will simply slow down if it thinks it's getting too hot.

    AIUI that is the case

    When you are using it in 'burst mode' to do something compute intense it
    will get hot.

    But not that hot... :-)

    --
    If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
    eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
    time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
    and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
    important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
    the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
    truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

    Joseph Goebbels

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to David Taylor on Tue Apr 9 16:15:50 2024
    On 09/04/2024 15:38, David Taylor wrote:
    On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD
    attached to it.  The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
    for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4.  A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.

    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
    supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague.  Can
    I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
    heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ?  The
    space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
    mean across that time is about 15.5C.

    TIA

    Adrian

    Adrian,

    No problem with the other suggestions.

    When you say "starting to struggle" what have you measured?  Are you
    running out of memory, CPU power, disk I/O, or network I/O?  I think it would be useful to know what exactly in your system needs changing.

    It's possible that a Pi 3B+ might be a sufficient upgrade (but can you
    still get them?).

    Can in uk at the moment. all sorts.

    The Pi-5 creates quite a bit more heat than the Pi 4, and has some
    software compatibility issues, so unless you really need the 5, stick to
    the 4.  (I have both here).

    I think that's a good point

    If you are not running headless, the Pi 400
    has a heatsink and keyboard built in.  I have a couple here and have
    been very pleased with them. One even runs both Windows and Linux,
    that's using the Twister OS.  It uses about 2 GB of its 4 GB memory, and averages 10-12% CPU.

    --
    If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
    eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
    time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
    and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
    important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
    the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
    truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

    Joseph Goebbels

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Adrian@3:770/3 to david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.inval on Tue Apr 9 16:30:17 2024
    In message <uv3jsh$l8h$1@dont-email.me>, David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> writes
    On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD
    attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
    for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.
    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger
    power
    supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
    I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
    heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
    space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
    mean across that time is about 15.5C.
    TIA
    Adrian

    Adrian,

    No problem with the other suggestions.

    When you say "starting to struggle" what have you measured? Are you
    running out of memory, CPU power, disk I/O, or network I/O? I think it
    would be useful to know what exactly in your system needs changing.


    The Pi is run headless in the normal way of things, but being able to
    connect a keyboard, mouse and monitor is helpful for the initial set up.

    I monitor (every minute), CPU usage and temperature, as well as free
    memory (in addition to time to ping the router, space used on the SD
    card and SSD, bytes in/out and logical block access on the SSD). I can
    also see (using ls) how long it takes for the graphs (as png files) to
    be created.

    On Sunday, I updated matplotlib (hoping, and failing, to fix a rendering problem). The previous version was ~2.5 years old. Since then, the
    time taken to generate graphs has risen enormously. What had taken ~5
    minutes is now taking 12, which isn't good when you do it at a 10 minute interval. Saturday's CPU usage was a fairly typical 0.01 3.27 0,65
    (min, max, mean), whereas yesterday's was 0.15 9.24 3.92. Memory usage
    doesn't seem vastly different, and CPU temperature was slightly lower,
    although that is to an extent governed by the ambient temperature, which
    has dropped slightly. The other resources appeared to be normalish
    (they vary a bit anyway). So from what I can see, the problem is that
    I'm badly lacking in CPU power rather than other resources.


    It's possible that a Pi 3B+ might be a sufficient upgrade (but can you
    still get them?).


    The rationale of looking at a Pi4 rather than a Pi3, was to make a jump
    ahead so that I've got some spare capacity on the Pi, which gives me
    room for further expansion, which I'm likely to need in the near future.
    For no obvious reason, the Pi5 hadn't entered my thought processes.

    Thanks

    Adrian
    --
    To Reply :
    replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
    Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
    Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Apr 9 16:52:15 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09/04/2024 14:11, Chris Green wrote:
    Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD
    attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
    for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.

    If you're buying the Pi4 then why not go for a Pi5, there's very
    little difference in the price.



    nearly twice the price for entry level.

    Pi Hut:-

    4Gb Pi 5 - £58.50
    4Gb Pi 4 - £55.00
    1Gb Pi 4 - £35.00

    You can't get a 1Gb Pi 5, until recently you couldn't get a 1Gb Pi 4.
    If I was buying a Pi 4 now I wouldn't go for a 1Gb one.


    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to David Taylor on Tue Apr 9 17:05:01 2024
    David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
    On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs
    for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.

    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague. Can
    I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I need a
    heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ? The
    space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C, the
    mean across that time is about 15.5C.

    TIA

    Adrian

    Adrian,

    No problem with the other suggestions.

    When you say "starting to struggle" what have you measured? Are you running out of memory, CPU power, disk I/O, or network I/O? I think it would be useful
    to know what exactly in your system needs changing.

    It's possible that a Pi 3B+ might be a sufficient upgrade (but can you still get them?).

    Yes, but a 1Gb Pi 3b costs more than a 1Gb Pi 4 so there's not much
    point in buying one unless the lower power consumption is really
    important.


    The Pi-5 creates quite a bit more heat than the Pi 4, and has some software compatibility issues, so unless you really need the 5, stick to the 4. (I have
    both here). If you are not running headless, the Pi 400 has a heatsink and keyboard built in. I have a couple here and have been very pleased with them.
    One even runs both Windows and Linux, that's using the Twister OS. It uses about 2 GB of its 4 GB memory, and averages 10-12% CPU.

    When idle there's little difference, e.g. :-

    "We also ran a test to measure the heat generated by the devices
    during use. The comparison shows that both Raspberry Pi 5 and
    Raspberry Pi 4 generate similar amounts of heat. In terms of power
    consumption, the PI4 and PI5 have similar power consumption when not
    running programs. However, during video playback, there is only a
    small difference of 0.2 watts in their power consumption."

    The Pi 5 *can* use more power but when doing the 'same thing' the
    power consumption is pretty close to that of the Pi 4.


    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Chris Green on Tue Apr 9 19:40:33 2024
    On 09/04/2024 16:52, Chris Green wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09/04/2024 14:11, Chris Green wrote:
    Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
    I'm currently running a Pi2, which has a BME280 (via a hat) and a SSD
    attached to it. The Pi is now starting to struggle to generate graphs >>>> for my home website, so I'm thinking of swapping it for a Pi4. A
    rummage online doesn't seem to fully answer my questions.

    If you're buying the Pi4 then why not go for a Pi5, there's very
    little difference in the price.



    nearly twice the price for entry level.

    Pi Hut:-

    4Gb Pi 5 - £58.50
    4Gb Pi 4 - £55.00
    1Gb Pi 4 - £35.00

    You can't get a 1Gb Pi 5, until recently you couldn't get a 1Gb Pi 4.
    If I was buying a Pi 4 now I wouldn't go for a 1Gb one.

    I did. Running _headless_ it is more than enough.

    $ free -m
    total used free shared buff/cache
    available
    Mem: 907 257 297 3 418
    650
    Swap: 99 0 99

    I sometimes run short of CPU, but never RAM



    --
    To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Tue Apr 9 21:40:59 2024
    T24gMDkvMDQvMjAyNCAxMzo1MiwgQWRyaWFuIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBBcGFydCBmcm9tIHRoZSBQ aTQsIHRvIHVwZ3JhZGUsIEkga25vdyB0aGF0IEkgd2lsbCBuZWVkIGEgYmlnZ2VyIHBvd2Vy IA0KPiBzdXBwbHkgYW5kIGEgSERNSSBhZGFwdGVyIGxlYWQsIGJ1dCBhZnRlciwgdGhpbmdz IGFyZSBhIGJpdCB2YWd1ZS7CoCBDYW4gDQo+IEkgZ2V0IGF3YXkgd2l0aCB0aGUgUGk0IHdp dGhvdXQgYW55IGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgY29vbGluZywgb3IgZG8gSSBuZWVkIGEgDQo+IGhlYXQg c2luayBvciBmYW4sIGFuZCBpZiBzbywgaG93IGRvIHRoZXkgZ2V0IG9uIHdpdGggdGhlIGhh dCA/wqAgVGhlIA0KPiBzcGFjZSBpdCBpcyBpbiBoYXMgaGFkIGEgdGVtcGVyYXR1cmUgcmFu Z2Ugb2YgLTEgdG8gNDAgZGVncmVlcyBDLCB0aGUgDQo+IG1lYW4gYWNyb3NzIHRoYXQgdGlt ZSBpcyBhYm91dCAxNS41Qy4NCg0KNDBDIGlzIHF1aXRlIGEgaGlnaCBhbWJpZW50IHRlbXBl cmF0dXJlLiBJZiB5b3UgYXJlIGdvaW5nIHRvIHJ1biB0aGUgUGkgDQo0QiBoYXJkIHdpdGgg dGhlIGxpa2VzIG9mIG1hdHBsb3RsaWIsIHBhc3NpdmUgY29vbGluZyBteSBub3QgYmUgZW5v dWdoIA0KdG8gc3RvcCBpdCB0aHJvdHRsaW5nLiBPbmUgb2YgbWluZSBoYXMgYSBsYXJnZSBo ZWF0IHNpbmsgY2FzZSB3aXRoIG5vIA0KZmFuIGFuZCBuZXZlciBnb2VzIG92ZXIgNjBDLCBi dXQgdGhhdCdzIGF0IGEgMjBDIGFtYmllbnQuIEZvciA0MEMgDQphbWJpZW50LCBJIHdvdWxk IHJlY29tbWVuZCBhIGZhbiBjYXNlLCBnbyBmb3IgYSA0MG1tIGZhbiBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCBp dCANCnRvIGJlIHF1aWV0LCAzMG1tIG9uZXMgY2FuIGJlIG5vaXN5Lg0KDQotLS1kcnVjaw0K
    DQo=

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  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Tue Apr 9 21:43:13 2024
    T24gMDkvMDQvMjAyNCAxNjozMCwgQWRyaWFuIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBJbiBtZXNzYWdlIDx1djNq c2gkbDhoJDFAZG9udC1lbWFpbC5tZT4sIERhdmlkIFRheWxvciANCj4gPGRhdmlkLXRheWxv ckBibHVleW9uZGVyLmNvLnVrLmludmFsaWQ+IHdyaXRlcw0KPj4gV2hlbiB5b3Ugc2F5ICJz dGFydGluZyB0byBzdHJ1Z2dsZSIgd2hhdCBoYXZlIHlvdSBtZWFzdXJlZD/CoCBBcmUgeW91 IA0KPj4gcnVubmluZyBvdXQgb2YgbWVtb3J5LCBDUFUgcG93ZXIsIGRpc2sgSS9PLCBvciBu ZXR3b3JrIEkvTz/CoCBJIHRoaW5rIA0KPj4gaXQgd291bGQgYmUgdXNlZnVsIHRvIGtub3cg d2hhdCBleGFjdGx5IGluIHlvdXIgc3lzdGVtIG5lZWRzIGNoYW5naW5nLg0KPj4NCj4gDQo+ IFRoZSBQaSBpcyBydW4gaGVhZGxlc3MgaW4gdGhlIG5vcm1hbCB3YXkgb2YgdGhpbmdzLCBi dXQgYmVpbmcgYWJsZSB0byANCj4gY29ubmVjdCBhIGtleWJvYXJkLCBtb3VzZSBhbmQgbW9u aXRvciBpcyBoZWxwZnVsIGZvciB0aGUgaW5pdGlhbCBzZXQgdXAuDQo+IA0KPiBJIG1vbml0 b3IgKGV2ZXJ5IG1pbnV0ZSksIENQVSB1c2FnZSBhbmQgdGVtcGVyYXR1cmUsIGFzIHdlbGwg YXMgZnJlZSANCj4gbWVtb3J5IChpbiBhZGRpdGlvbiB0byB0aW1lIHRvIHBpbmcgdGhlIHJv dXRlciwgc3BhY2UgdXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgU0QgDQo+IGNhcmQgYW5kIFNTRCwgYnl0ZXMgaW4v b3V0IGFuZCBsb2dpY2FsIGJsb2NrIGFjY2VzcyBvbiB0aGUgU1NEKS7CoCBJIGNhbiANCj4g YWxzbyBzZWUgKHVzaW5nIGxzKSBob3cgbG9uZyBpdCB0YWtlcyBmb3IgdGhlIGdyYXBocyAo YXMgcG5nIGZpbGVzKSB0byANCj4gYmUgY3JlYXRlZC4NCg0KSSBkbyB0aGUgc2ltaWxhciBk YXRhIGdhdGhlcmluZyBvbiBteSAxNiBSYXNwYmVycnkgUGkncyAoYSBtaXggb2YgMFcsIA0K MDJXLCAyQiwgM0EsIDNCLCAzQissIDRCIGFuZCA1QiksIGVhY2ggcnVucyBQeXRob24gc2Vy dmljZXMgd2hpY2ggbWFrZSANCmZyZXF1ZW50IHJlYWRpbmdzIG9mIENQVSBhbmQgZW52aXJv bm1lbnQgdGVtcGVyYXR1cmVzLCBuZXR3b3JrIGxhdGVuY2llcyANCmFuZCB2YXJpb3VzIHBo eXNpY2FsIHNlbnNvcnMgYW5kIGNyZWF0ZXMgYSByb2xsaW5nIDE1IG1pbnV0ZSBhdmVyYWdl IA0Kd2l0aCBtaW4gYW5kIG1heCB2YWx1ZXMuIFRoZXkgYWxzbyBydW4gUHl0aG9uIGZsYXNr IHdlYiBzZXJ2ZXJzIGFsbG93aW5nIA0KYWxsIHRoZSBkYXRhIHRvIGJlIHJlYWQgZXZlcnkg MTUgbWludXRlcyBieSBhIG1hc3RlciBQaSA0IHVzaW5nIGN1cmwgDQpjb21tYW5kcyAobXVj aCBmYXN0ZXIgdGhhbiBzc2gnaW5nIHRvIGVhY2ggYm94KS4NCg0KT25seSB0aGUgc2luZ2xl IGNvcmUgUGkgWmVyb3Mgc2hvdyBhbnkgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgbGF0ZW5jeSB3aGVuIHJlYWRp bmcgDQphIGZldyBkb3plbiBEUzE4QjIwIHNpbmdsZSB3aXJlIHRlbXBlcmF0dXJlIHNlbnNv cnMsIHRoZSBQaSBaZXJvIDJXIGFuZCANClBpIDJCIHJ1biBhdCB0aGUgc2FtZSBjbG9jayBy YXRlLCBidXQgYmVuZWZpdCBmcm9tIHRoZSBleHRyYSBjb3Jlcy4NCg0KPiBPbiBTdW5kYXks IEkgdXBkYXRlZCBtYXRwbG90bGliIChob3BpbmcsIGFuZCBmYWlsaW5nLCB0byBmaXggYSBy ZW5kZXJpbmcgDQo+IHByb2JsZW0pLsKgIFRoZSBwcmV2aW91cyB2ZXJzaW9uIHdhcyB+Mi41 IHllYXJzIG9sZC7CoCBTaW5jZSB0aGVuLCB0aGUgDQo+IHRpbWUgdGFrZW4gdG8gZ2VuZXJh dGUgZ3JhcGhzIGhhcyByaXNlbiBlbm9ybW91c2x5LsKgIFdoYXQgaGFkIHRha2VuIH41IA0K PiBtaW51dGVzIGlzIG5vdyB0YWtpbmcgMTIsIHdoaWNoIGlzbid0IGdvb2Qgd2hlbiB5b3Ug ZG8gaXQgYXQgYSAxMCBtaW51dGUgDQo+IGludGVydmFsLiAgDQoNClRoYXQncyBxdWl0ZSBh IGxvdCBvZiB0aW1lIGZvciByZW5kZXJpbmcuIFdoYXQgSSBkbyBpcyBvbiB0aGUgUGkgaXMg cnVuIA0KYSBQeXRob24gdXdzZ2kgcHJvZ3JhbSB3aGljaCBwcm9jZXNzIGFsbCB0aGUgZGF0 YSB3aGljaCBoYXMgYmVlbiBzdG9yZWQgDQppbiBzcWxpdGUzIGRhdGFiYXNlcywgcHJvZHVj aW5nIGEgYml0IG9mIEhUTUwgYW5kIEphdmFjcmlwdCB3aGljaCANCnV0aWxpc2VzIGdvb2ds ZSBjaGFydHMgdG8gdGhlIHRoZSBwbG90dGluZy4gVGhlIHByb2Nlc3NpbmcgdGFrZXMgdGhl IFBpIA0KNEIgdW5kZXIgYSBzZWNvbmQsIGFuZCBjYW4gcGxvdCB0aGUgZGF0YSBpdHNlbGYg aW4gQ2hyb21pdW0gaW4gYSBmZXcgDQpzZWNvbmRzLCBidXQgSSBtYWlubHkgYWNjZXNzIGl0 IGZyb20gZmFzdGVyIExpbnV4IGJveGVzLCB3aGVyZSByZW5kZXJpbmcgDQpvZiB0aGUgZ29v Z2xlIGNoYXJ0cyBpbiBhbG1vc3QgaW5zdGFudC4NCg0KUGVyaGFwcyB5b3UgY291bGQgYWxz byBwZXJmb3JtIHRoZSByZW5kZXJpbmcgb24gYSBtZWF0aWVyIG1hY2hpbmUgdG9vLg0KDQot LS1kcnVjaw0KDQo=

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  • From Adrian@3:770/3 to All on Tue Apr 9 22:14:49 2024
    In message <uv4991$efer$2@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
    writes
    That's quite a lot of time for rendering. What I do is on the Pi is run
    a Python uwsgi program which process all the data which has been stored
    in sqlite3 databases, producing a bit of HTML and Javacript which
    utilises google charts to the the plotting. The processing takes the Pi
    4B under a second, and can plot the data itself in Chromium in a few
    seconds, but I mainly access it from faster Linux boxes, where
    rendering of the google charts in almost instant.

    Perhaps you could also perform the rendering on a meatier machine too.


    I did think about that, but that would mean leaving one of my PCs on
    24x7 which I'm not keen on.

    Adrian
    --
    To Reply :
    replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
    Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
    Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

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  • From Adrian@3:770/3 to All on Tue Apr 9 22:19:57 2024
    In message <uv494r$efer$1@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
    writes
    On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger
    power supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit
    vague.á Can I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or
    do I need a heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the
    hat ?á The space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40
    degrees C, the mean across that time is about 15.5C.

    40C is quite a high ambient temperature. If you are going to run the Pi
    4B hard with the likes of matplotlib, passive cooling my not be enough
    to stop it throttling. One of mine has a large heat sink case with no
    fan and never goes over 60C, but that's at a 20C ambient. For 40C
    ambient, I would recommend a fan case, go for a 40mm fan if you want it
    to be quiet, 30mm ones can be noisy.


    40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
    month.

    I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use of
    the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
    temperature is. I suppose I could design one of my own.

    Adrian
    --
    To Reply :
    replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
    Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
    Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

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  • From Chris Townley@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Apr 10 00:02:18 2024
    On 09/04/2024 21:40, druck wrote:
    On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
    supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague.
    Can I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I
    need a heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ?
    The space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C,
    the mean across that time is about 15.5C.

    40C is quite a high ambient temperature. If you are going to run the Pi
    4B hard with the likes of matplotlib, passive cooling my not be enough
    to stop it throttling. One of mine has a large heat sink case with no
    fan and never goes over 60C, but that's at a 20C ambient. For 40C
    ambient, I would recommend a fan case, go for a 40mm fan if you want it
    to be quiet, 30mm ones can be noisy.

    ---druck


    On Pi4 I use the Argon ONE V2 case - good case with sensible fan. I have
    a V3 for the Pi5, excellent with their M2 bottom. Both available from
    the Pi Hut UK

    --
    Chris

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  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to Adrian on Wed Apr 10 09:24:12 2024
    Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
    In message <uv4991$efer$2@dont-email.me>, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
    writes
    That's quite a lot of time for rendering. What I do is on the Pi is run
    a Python uwsgi program which process all the data which has been stored
    in sqlite3 databases, producing a bit of HTML and Javacript which
    utilises google charts to the the plotting. The processing takes the Pi
    4B under a second, and can plot the data itself in Chromium in a few >seconds, but I mainly access it from faster Linux boxes, where
    rendering of the google charts in almost instant.

    Perhaps you could also perform the rendering on a meatier machine too.


    I did think about that, but that would mean leaving one of my PCs on
    24x7 which I'm not keen on.

    Get a PC that's as low powered as a Pi, there are such beasts around
    nowadays and you can even find quite cheap refurbished ones. I like
    Fujitsu Esprimos, my desktop machine is an Esprimo P910 which is
    getting rather long in the tooth now (and consumes 18 watts at idle).
    I'm getting an Esprimo Q957 to replace it, that idles at about 5
    watts. There are lots of different models with different capabilities
    and you can find even lower power ones than the Q957.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to druck on Wed Apr 10 10:19:31 2024
    On 09/04/2024 21:40, druck wrote:
    On 09/04/2024 13:52, Adrian wrote:
    Apart from the Pi4, to upgrade, I know that I will need a bigger power
    supply and a HDMI adapter lead, but after, things are a bit vague.
    Can I get away with the Pi4 without any additional cooling, or do I
    need a heat sink or fan, and if so, how do they get on with the hat ?
    The space it is in has had a temperature range of -1 to 40 degrees C,
    the mean across that time is about 15.5C.

    40C is quite a high ambient temperature.

    Not where I have worked...

    Many years ago a small piece of equipment I had designed, housed in a
    totally enclosed steel rack mount case failed after it had been on for
    over a day.

    It came back to me. It was working perfectly.

    So I left it on for a day in the lab with a thermometer probe inside,
    It got to well over 90°C inside.

    Beyond the upper limits of the commercial chips it was built from. They
    were well over 100°C case when opened it up.

    We changed the case design and punched some air holes in it, and the
    problem never reoccurred.


    There are three relevant points here.

    The first is that silicon chips themselves survive extremely high
    internal temperatures. I have had a power Schottky diode unsolder itself
    when connected across a battery. The chips will generally suffer
    permanent damage at somewhere around 180°C . Which is a good thing since
    they are soldered to a board using hot air at a lot more than that.

    The second thing us that they will start to exhibit seriously out of
    spec. behaviour at their rated *ambient* temperatures - usually +75°C
    for ICs. Inside the chip may well be a lot warmer than that.

    The final thing is to understand the difference between a closed box,
    thermal convection cooling and forced air cooling. the is roughly a
    25:5:1 ratio in cooling between the three cases.

    How many Pis are in *closed* boxes *without* fans?

    It's less an issue of 'do I need a fan?' or 'its 40°C ambient' than 'is
    any hot air going to escape?'

    With case temperatures up to well over 100°C possible for power devices,
    the difference to an ambient of 40°C is not the much worse than say,
    25°C. at a device case temperature of 100°C it is the difference between
    a 75°C delta and 60°C delta - not that great really

    And a Pi draws somewhere in the 3-5W region. And has lots of board
    surface area to dissipate that.

    From the Pi forum


    "I have put the Pi4 in an airtight enclosure (with a big passive
    heatsink), locked the frequency to 1500Mhz, overvoltage=4 and have
    cpuburn running for about two hours. Ambient temp inside the box is 54
    degrees celsius now.

    vcgencmd measure_temp and vcgencmd measure_temp pmic show:

    Pi4 CPU temp=124.0'C
    Pi4 PMIC temp=129.7'C

    And it's still running fine, have a chromium open and can surf the web.
    I'm quite amazed."

    https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=264786

    The whole thread is well worth reading.

    And complements what I am saying, that only in a sealed enclosure where
    no convection is possible can you get to super high temeperatures, and
    in normal use the CPU will in any case throttle back

    If you are going to run the Pi
    4B hard with the likes of matplotlib, passive cooling my not be enough
    to stop it throttling.

    That is a very hand wavey statement.

    Passive cooling in a car in the sun with the windows closed yes, passive cooling in a well ventilated case in a room at 40°C, no way.

    One of mine has a large heat sink case with no
    fan and never goes over 60C, but that's at a 20C ambient. For 40C
    ambient, I would recommend a fan case, go for a 40mm fan if you want it
    to be quiet, 30mm ones can be noisy.

    Personally year of designing high power audio amplifiers and dealing
    with computer hardware says 'bullshit'. You simply don't need fans for a
    board doing 5W. You can get that out of a single small transistor with
    a heatsink clipped on it. You can get that out of a TO3 packaged power transistor with no heat sink *at all*.

    And a PI4B board is a *lot* more surface area than that.

    Currently this rooms is at 24.2°C according to a thermometer equipped
    pico PI and the resident 4B that is in free air is showing this:

    me@Coriolanus:~$ vcgencmd measure_temp
    temp=53.5'C
    me@Coriolanus:~$ vcgencmd measure_temp pmic
    temp=45.8'C


    So at idle -ish the chip internals are 29.3°C - call it 30°C over ambient.

    at 40°C ambient the chip internals will be up around 70°C.

    That is nothing.

    "we throttle the CPU when it get to 85 to keep the temperatures down.
    I've never seen anything over 90 in normal usage"

    Is what the Raspberry Pi engineer says the chips do, in that thread I
    referred to above.

    In short *unless* you put the pi in an airtight case and wrap it in
    insulation or leave it in the midday sun, it doesn't need a fan.

    But people are just used to old school SPARC and INTEL chip that kicked
    out upwards of 50W at idle, needing a fan. In hard use some SPARCs
    would draw up to 300W!!!

    Of all the customer returns on SPARC workstations I can remember they
    were all dead fans or dead cpus (with dead fans as well).


    --
    “There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

    —Soren Kierkegaard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Adrian on Wed Apr 10 10:22:33 2024
    On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
    40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
    month.

    I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use of
    the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
    temperature is.  I suppose I could design one of my own

    Seriously, you don't need a fan.

    Just a *ventilated* case.

    I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille in
    one end wall.

    Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
    air, all will be well

    --
    "I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
    This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
    all women"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Adrian@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Wed Apr 10 14:12:48 2024
    In message <uv5lop$s7bl$2@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
    On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
    40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer >>month.
    I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
    of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient >>temperature is.á I suppose I could design one of my own

    Seriously, you don't need a fan.

    Just a *ventilated* case.

    I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille
    in one end wall.

    Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
    air, all will be well



    Thanks.

    There appear to be several likely looking cases on Thingiverse (other
    sites available), so I suspect that I'll download one of those, and if
    needs be tweak it for my needs.

    Adrian
    --
    To Reply :
    replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
    Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
    Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Chris Green@3:770/3 to Adrian on Wed Apr 10 14:49:28 2024
    Adrian <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> wrote:
    In message <cuuhek-vqs4.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> writes
    Get a PC that's as low powered as a Pi, there are such beasts around >nowadays and you can even find quite cheap refurbished ones. I like >Fujitsu Esprimos, my desktop machine is an Esprimo P910 which is
    getting rather long in the tooth now (and consumes 18 watts at idle).
    I'm getting an Esprimo Q957 to replace it, that idles at about 5
    watts. There are lots of different models with different capabilities
    and you can find even lower power ones than the Q957.


    Thanks. An interesting looking little beastie, but the only place I
    could find selling them was Currys, and they appear to be for trade
    sales only.

    Look on eBay, there's a German company selling refurbished Q957s. The
    current model is the Q958 (I think), you'll probably find more people
    selling that.

    --
    Chris Green
    ·

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Adrian@3:770/3 to All on Wed Apr 10 14:10:55 2024
    In message <cuuhek-vqs4.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net>
    writes
    Get a PC that's as low powered as a Pi, there are such beasts around
    nowadays and you can even find quite cheap refurbished ones. I like
    Fujitsu Esprimos, my desktop machine is an Esprimo P910 which is
    getting rather long in the tooth now (and consumes 18 watts at idle).
    I'm getting an Esprimo Q957 to replace it, that idles at about 5
    watts. There are lots of different models with different capabilities
    and you can find even lower power ones than the Q957.


    Thanks. An interesting looking little beastie, but the only place I
    could find selling them was Currys, and they appear to be for trade
    sales only.

    Adrian
    --
    To Reply :
    replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
    Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
    Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Adrian on Thu Apr 11 10:44:35 2024
    On 10/04/2024 14:12, Adrian wrote:
    In message <uv5lop$s7bl$2@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
    On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
    40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
    month.
     I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
    of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
    temperature is.  I suppose I could design one of my own

    Seriously, you don't need a fan.

    Just a *ventilated* case.

    I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille
    in one end wall.

    Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
    air, all will be well



    Thanks.

    There appear to be several likely looking cases on Thingiverse (other
    sites available), so I suspect that I'll download one of those, and if
    needs be tweak it for my needs.

    I'll try and post mine somewhere. Finished it last night,. It's working
    well with two SSDS and a chip temp of around 65°C-75°C dependent on load.

    $ vcgencmd measure_temp
    temp=68.1'C

    Can you tweak STLs?



    Adrian

    --
    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
    ― Groucho Marx

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn_Lundin?=@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Thu Apr 11 12:27:46 2024
    On 2024-04-11 11:44, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


    I'll try and post mine somewhere. Finished it last night,. It's working
    well with two SSDS and a chip temp of around 65°C-75°C dependent on load.

    $ vcgencmd measure_temp
    temp=68.1'C


    I have a pi4 2Gb RAM in a closet, running 24/7.
    The load on it I'd say is low to medium (whatever that means)
    It polls betfair for odds during horse races as fast as it can when a 'suitable' race is on. That is 1-5 minutes say up to 30 times per day.
    It inserts that data into a PostgreSQL database and makes graphs ans stats
    a couple of times per day.
    It never exceed 50 C so far. I've got historical 'vcgencmd measure_temp'
    for some years now - once per minute

    It is in a flirc case - no fan.

    --
    /Björn

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  • From Adrian@3:770/3 to tnp@invalid.invalid on Thu Apr 11 13:50:42 2024
    In message <uv8be3$1k8fn$2@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
    I'll try and post mine somewhere. Finished it last night,. It's working
    well with two SSDS and a chip temp of around 65░C-75░C dependent on
    load.


    Thanks

    I found a suitable candidate on printables.com :

    <https://www.printables.com/model/48006-prusa-mini-raspberry-pi-case-for- the-pi4-b/files>

    which I've modified. I've made the base 4mm thicker, which gives me
    enough depth to put two countersunk holes in it so I can screw the base
    down.

    Can you tweak STLs?


    Not easily. However, in this case (!), there is the option to download
    the f3d file which can be uploaded into Fusion360 and then worked on in
    there.


    Pi4, power supply and HDMI lead on order. I was hoping that they would
    arrive today, but DHL seem to think that they would prefer to spend
    their day at their local depot.


    Adrian
    --
    To Reply :
    replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
    Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
    Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

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  • From Adrian@3:770/3 to bulleid@ku.gro.lioff on Fri Apr 12 17:18:44 2024
    In message <BgBGXbDiy9FmFwYk@ku.gro.lloiff>, Adrian
    <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> writes
    Pi4, power supply and HDMI lead on order. I was hoping that they would >arrive today, but DHL seem to think that they would prefer to spend
    their day at their local depot.


    After spending a day at the depot, it was sent out for delivery today. According to the 07:58 email, it should have been with me between 10:19
    and 11:19. According to the tracking site, at 10:30 I was the next
    drop. At 14:20 I gave up waiting and went out. Parcel arrived at 14:40,
    and was left next to the front door, fortunately not obvious from the
    road.

    Work is now underway to install the software etc. on the new Pi.

    Thanks again for all the help.

    Adrian
    --
    To Reply :
    replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
    Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
    Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

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  • From Jim Jackson@3:770/3 to druck on Sun Apr 14 19:07:13 2024
    On 2024-04-14, druck <news@druck.org.uk> wrote:
    On 10/04/2024 10:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
    40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
    month.

    I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
    of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
    temperature is.?? I suppose I could design one of my own

    Seriously, you don't need a fan.

    Just a *ventilated* case.

    I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille in
    one end wall.

    Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
    air, all will be well


    The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is anything other than sitting idle all the time.

    I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
    will keep it at full speed under any load.

    I use this passive heatsink on my pi4s

    https://thepihut.com/products/aluminium-armour-heatsink-case-for-raspberry-pi-4

    But it there are not in cases otherwise.
    Did some tests ages ago and it never throttled.

    p.s. disclaimer - no relationship to pihut except as a satisfied customer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Sun Apr 14 19:51:33 2024
    T24gMTAvMDQvMjAyNCAxMDoyMiwgVGhlIE5hdHVyYWwgUGhpbG9zb3BoZXIgd3JvdGU6DQo+ IE9uIDA5LzA0LzIwMjQgMjI6MTksIEFkcmlhbiB3cm90ZToNCj4+IDQwIHdhcyBwcm9iYWJs eSBhIG9uZSBvZmYgKGhlYXQgd2F2ZSksIGJ1dCBtaWQgMzBzIG9jY3VyIGV2ZXJ5IHN1bW1l ciANCj4+IG1vbnRoLg0KPj4NCj4+IEkndmUgYmVlbiBsb29raW5nIGF0IGZhbiBjYXNlcywg YnV0IHRoZXkgYWxsIHNlZW0gdG8gcHJldmVudCB0aGUgdXNlIA0KPj4gb2YgdGhlIEhBVCwg d2hpY2ggbWVhbnMgSSB3b24ndCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIGZpbmQgb3V0IHdoYXQgdGhlIGFtYmll bnQgDQo+PiB0ZW1wZXJhdHVyZSBpcy7CoCBJIHN1cHBvc2UgSSBjb3VsZCBkZXNpZ24gb25l IG9mIG15IG93bg0KPiANCj4gU2VyaW91c2x5LCB5b3UgZG9uJ3QgbmVlZCBhIGZhbi4NCj4g DQo+IEp1c3QgYSAqdmVudGlsYXRlZCogY2FzZS4NCj4gDQo+IEkgYW0gZGVzaWduaW5nIGEg Y2FzZSBmb3IgbWluZSByaWdodCBub3csIGZlYXR1cmluZyBhIGNvbXBsZXRlIGdyaWxsZSBp biANCj4gb25lIGVuZCB3YWxsLg0KPiANCj4gRXhwZXJpZW5jZSBzaG93cyB0aGF0IGFzIGxv bmcgYXMgaG90IGFpciBjYW4gZXNjYXBlIGFuZCBkcmF3IGluIGNvb2xlciANCj4gYWlyLCBh bGwgd2lsbCBiZSB3ZWxsDQoNCg0KVGhlIFBpIDRCIHdpbGwgZGVmaW5pdGVseSB0aHJvdHRs ZSB3aXRoIG9ubHkgYSB2ZW50aWxhdGVkIGNhc2UgaWYgaXQgaXMgDQphbnl0aGluZyBvdGhl ciB0aGFuIHNpdHRpbmcgaWRsZSBhbGwgdGhlIHRpbWUuDQoNCkkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIHRoZSBw b2ludCBvZiBsZXR0aW5nIGl0IHRocm90dGxpbmcgd2hlbiBhbiBpbmV4cGVuc2l2ZSBmYW4g DQp3aWxsIGtlZXAgaXQgYXQgZnVsbCBzcGVlZCB1bmRlciBhbnkgbG9hZC4NCg0KLS0tZHJ1 Y2sNCg0K

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to druck on Sun Apr 14 20:11:09 2024
    On 14/04/2024 19:51, druck wrote:
    On 10/04/2024 10:22, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 09/04/2024 22:19, Adrian wrote:
    40 was probably a one off (heat wave), but mid 30s occur every summer
    month.

    I've been looking at fan cases, but they all seem to prevent the use
    of the HAT, which means I won't be able to find out what the ambient
    temperature is.  I suppose I could design one of my own

    Seriously, you don't need a fan.

    Just a *ventilated* case.

    I am designing a case for mine right now, featuring a complete grille
    in one end wall.

    Experience shows that as long as hot air can escape and draw in cooler
    air, all will be well


    The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is anything other than sitting idle all the time.

    I am not interested in proof by assertion
    I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C

    I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
    will keep it at full speed under any load.

    I question that it will in fact throttle.

    Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
    'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.

    The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
    cooling



    ---druck


    --
    Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
    – Will Durant

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Kees Nuyt@3:770/3 to All on Mon Apr 15 13:45:53 2024
    On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 19:51:33 +0100, druck <news@druck.org.uk>
    wrote:

    [...]
    The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is anything other than sitting idle all the time.

    I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
    will keep it at full speed under any load.

    I sometimes use a small 12V fan on Pi3 or Pi4, running at 5V.
    It does not "blow", but it "moves air" well h to prevent
    throttling.

    No all 12V fans will work, but if it does, it is silent and with
    less wear than high RPM fans.
    --
    Kees Nuyt

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From druck@3:770/3 to All on Mon Apr 15 15:13:56 2024
    T24gMTQvMDQvMjAyNCAyMDoxMSwgVGhlIE5hdHVyYWwgUGhpbG9zb3BoZXIgd3JvdGU6DQo+ IE9uIDE0LzA0LzIwMjQgMTk6NTEsIGRydWNrIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4gVGhlIFBpIDRCIHdpbGwg ZGVmaW5pdGVseSB0aHJvdHRsZSB3aXRoIG9ubHkgYSB2ZW50aWxhdGVkIGNhc2UgaWYgaXQg DQo+PiBpcyBhbnl0aGluZyBvdGhlciB0aGFuIHNpdHRpbmcgaWRsZSBhbGwgdGhlIHRpbWUu DQo+Pg0KPiBJIGFtIG5vdCBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIHByb29mIGJ5IGFzc2VydGlvbg0KPiBJ IGhhZCBtaW5lIHVwIHRvIDEzMCUgb24gJ3RvcCcgYW5kIGl0IG5ldmVyIG1hZGUgbW9yZSB0 aGFuIDc2wrBDDQoNClNvIHlvdSB3ZXJlIG9ubHkgdXNpbmcgMSBhbmQgYSBiaXQgY29yZXMs IGhhcmRseSB0YXhpbmcgaXQuDQoNCj4+IEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIHRoZSBwb2ludCBvZiBsZXR0 aW5nIGl0IHRocm90dGxpbmcgd2hlbiBhbiBpbmV4cGVuc2l2ZSBmYW4gDQo+PiB3aWxsIGtl ZXAgaXQgYXQgZnVsbCBzcGVlZCB1bmRlciBhbnkgbG9hZC4NCj4+DQo+IEkgcXVlc3Rpb24g dGhhdCBpdCB3aWxsIGluIGZhY3QgdGhyb3R0bGUuDQoNCklmIHlvdSBkbyBzb21ldGhpbmcg d2hpY2ggdXNlcyBtdWx0aXBsZSBjb3JlcyBpdCB3aWxsLg0KDQo+IExpa2Ugc28gbXVjaCAn ZXZlcnlib2R5IGtub3dzJ8KgIHdoZW4geW91IGxvb2sgYXQgaXQgaXQgaXMgaW4gZmFjdCAN Cj4gJ2V2ZXJ5b25lIGJlbGlldmVzIGJlY2F1c2UgcGVvcGxlIHNlbGxpbmcgZmFucyB0b2xk IHRoZW0gc28uDQoNCkknbSB0ZWxsaW5nIHlvdSBzbywgYW5kIEknbSBub3Qgc2VsbGluZyB5 b3UgYSBmYW4sIGFsdGhvdWdoIEkgZG8gaGF2ZSBhIA0KYnJpZGdlIGdvaW5nIHNwYXJlIGlm IHlvdSBkb24ndCBiZWxpZXZlIHRoYXQuDQoNCj4gVGhlIHdob2xlIHBvaW50IG9mIEFSTSBp cyBpdHMgbG93ZXIgcG93ZXIgYW5kIGxhY2sgb2YgbmVlZCBmb3IgZm9yY2VkIA0KPiBjb29s aW5nDQpUaGF0IG1pZ2h0IGhhdmUgYmVlbiB0aGUgY2FzZSBmb3IgYSBQaSAxIG9yIDIsIDMg YW5kIDMrcyB3b3VsZCB0aHJvdHRsZSANCmlmIHB1c2hlZCBoYXJkIGVub3VnaCwgNHMgYW5k IDVzIHdpbGwgZWFzaWx5Lg0KDQotLS1kcnVjaw0KDQoNCg==

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  • From Joerg Walther@3:770/3 to druck on Mon Apr 15 17:05:18 2024
    druck wrote:

    The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is >anything other than sitting idle all the time.

    I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
    will keep it at full speed under any load.

    I use the Flirc full body aluminium case for my two Rpi4s, it does not
    have a ventilator but nicely transports the energy away from the CPU and
    you can feel that the case gets slightly warm when the Pi is in use. I
    like it this way because there is one part less that can break in the
    setup.

    -jw-
    --
    And now for something completely different...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Adrian@3:770/3 to bulleid@ku.gro.lioff on Mon Apr 15 18:59:00 2024
    In message <Q1Um1HLk7VGmFwj8@ku.gro.lloiff>, Adrian
    <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> writes
    In message <BgBGXbDiy9FmFwYk@ku.gro.lloiff>, Adrian
    <bulleid@ku.gro.lioff> writes
    Pi4, power supply and HDMI lead on order. I was hoping that they
    would arrive today, but DHL seem to think that they would prefer to
    spend their day at their local depot.


    After spending a day at the depot, it was sent out for delivery today. >According to the 07:58 email, it should have been with me between 10:19
    and 11:19. According to the tracking site, at 10:30 I was the next
    drop. At 14:20 I gave up waiting and went out. Parcel arrived at
    14:40, and was left next to the front door, fortunately not obvious
    from the road.

    Work is now underway to install the software etc. on the new Pi.

    Thanks again for all the help.

    Adrian


    Noting the discussions elsewhere on the thread, I though the following
    might be useful. I take various readings every minute including the CPU temperature, the ambient temperature and the CPU loading. Having now
    had the Pi4 installed in its new home, the following is from the first
    full 24 hour period (min max mean) :

    CPU Temp 36.5 51.1 41.1
    Ambient temp 12.7 18.5 15.6
    CPU load % 0.00 1.31 0.09

    It will be interesting to see how that works out over a longer period.

    Performance wise, it is a vast improvement. Prior to the upgrade on matplotlib, I had one job running every 10 minutes, taking 5-6 minutes
    (11-12 minutes post software upgrade). That now runs in under 1 minute.

    Adrian
    --
    To Reply :
    replace "bulleid" with "adrian" - all mail to bulleid is rejected
    Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
    Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to druck on Mon Apr 15 20:41:24 2024
    On 15/04/2024 15:13, druck wrote:
    On 14/04/2024 20:11, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    On 14/04/2024 19:51, druck wrote:
    The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it
    is anything other than sitting idle all the time.

    I am not interested in proof by assertion
    I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C

    So you were only using 1 and a bit cores, hardly taxing it.

    I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive
    fan will keep it at full speed under any load.

    I question that it will in fact throttle.

    If you do something which uses multiple cores it will.

    Like so much 'everybody knows'  when you look at it it is in fact
    'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.

    I'm telling you so, and I'm not selling you a fan, although I do have a bridge going spare if you don't believe that.


    I don't know what case you are using, but I have tested my geekworm
    aluminium passive case. It does not throttle using:

    stress-ng --cpu 4

    Calcs suggest it might throttle on the hottest day of the year, but not normally.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Theo@3:770/3 to The Natural Philosopher on Tue Apr 16 10:59:00 2024
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is anything other than sitting idle all the time.

    I am not interested in proof by assertion
    I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C

    You do know that 'top' won't show throttling? Throttling means the CPU is clocked lower than the maximum frequency to reduce heat generation - top
    will still show '100%' of CPU (for one core) but that will be 100% of a
    lower clock speed.

    cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq

    shows you the current clock of CPU core 0 and:

    sudo vcgencmd get_throttled

    will tell you the throttling status:


    #### get_throttled

    Returns the throttled state of the system. This is a bit pattern.

    | Bit | Meaning |
    |:---:|---------|
    | 0 | Under-voltage detected |
    | 1 | Arm frequency capped |
    | 2 | Currently throttled |
    | 3 | Soft temperature limit active |
    | 16 | Under-voltage has occurred |
    | 17 | Arm frequency capped has occurred |
    | 18 | Throttling has occurred |
    | 19 | Soft temperature limit has occurred


    For example if I run 'stress -c 4' then get_throttled gives me: throttled=0xe0008

    so the temperature limit is in operation and throttling has occurred in the past. (this Pi4 has cooling, I can't remember but I think there's a
    heatsink and fan in there)

    $ sudo vcgencmd measure_temp
    temp=84.7'C

    so it's up near its thermal limit.

    I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
    will keep it at full speed under any load.

    I question that it will in fact throttle.

    Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
    'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.

    'Everybody knows' because they have evidence, not assertions.

    The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
    cooling

    Everyone's been thermally limited for maybe 15 years, it's just that Arm
    cores have traditionally targeted a lower thermal envelope in devices where forced air cooling isn't an option. The way this works is that CPUs work
    until they hit their thermal envelope and then throttle. No popular application processor for maybe a couple of decades has been able to power
    all the silicon at once to max performance and stay within the thermal
    budget.

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pancho@3:770/3 to Theo on Tue Apr 16 17:36:12 2024
    On 16/04/2024 10:59, Theo wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is
    anything other than sitting idle all the time.

    I am not interested in proof by assertion
    I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C

    You do know that 'top' won't show throttling? Throttling means the CPU is clocked lower than the maximum frequency to reduce heat generation - top
    will still show '100%' of CPU (for one core) but that will be 100% of a
    lower clock speed.

    cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq

    shows you the current clock of CPU core 0 and:

    sudo vcgencmd get_throttled

    will tell you the throttling status:


    #### get_throttled

    Returns the throttled state of the system. This is a bit pattern.

    | Bit | Meaning |
    |:---:|---------|
    | 0 | Under-voltage detected |
    | 1 | Arm frequency capped |
    | 2 | Currently throttled |
    | 3 | Soft temperature limit active |
    | 16 | Under-voltage has occurred |
    | 17 | Arm frequency capped has occurred |
    | 18 | Throttling has occurred |
    | 19 | Soft temperature limit has occurred


    For example if I run 'stress -c 4' then get_throttled gives me: throttled=0xe0008

    so the temperature limit is in operation and throttling has occurred in the past. (this Pi4 has cooling, I can't remember but I think there's a
    heatsink and fan in there)

    $ sudo vcgencmd measure_temp
    temp=84.7'C

    so it's up near its thermal limit.

    I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan
    will keep it at full speed under any load.

    I question that it will in fact throttle.

    Like so much 'everybody knows' when you look at it it is in fact
    'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.

    'Everybody knows' because they have evidence, not assertions.

    The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
    cooling

    Everyone's been thermally limited for maybe 15 years, it's just that Arm cores have traditionally targeted a lower thermal envelope in devices where forced air cooling isn't an option. The way this works is that CPUs work until they hit their thermal envelope and then throttle. No popular application processor for maybe a couple of decades has been able to power all the silicon at once to max performance and stay within the thermal budget.


    I think this thread is lacking precise, clear language, and people are
    making false comparisons. Talking about ventilated cases is confusing, I
    don't know what a thermal budget is.

    There are four points:

    1) Passive cases, where the case is a heat sink, are enough to keep a
    rPi4 below throttle temperatures, under any load, assuming ambient less
    than 35C.

    2) With no heatsink at all the rPi4 will throttle under compute
    intensive workloads.

    3) The rPi4 can perform useful day-to-day tasks without any heatsync,
    passive or forced, without throttling. I ran Motioneye, cctv, on mine
    for a couple of years before buying a case.

    4) Most of us don't use the rPi4 for continuous compute intensive tasks.

    There, that should make everyone happy :-)

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  • From The Natural Philosopher@3:770/3 to Pancho on Tue Apr 16 20:40:42 2024
    On 16/04/2024 17:36, Pancho wrote:
    On 16/04/2024 10:59, Theo wrote:
    The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    The Pi 4B will definitely throttle with only a ventilated case if it is >>>> anything other than sitting idle all the time.

    I am not interested in proof by assertion
    I had mine up to 130% on 'top' and it never made more than 76°C

    You do know that 'top' won't show throttling?  Throttling means the
    CPU is
    clocked lower than the maximum frequency to reduce heat generation - top
    will still show '100%' of CPU (for one core) but that will be 100% of a
    lower clock speed.

    cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_cur_freq

    shows you the current clock of CPU core 0 and:

    sudo vcgencmd get_throttled

    will tell you the throttling status:


    #### get_throttled

    Returns the throttled state of the system. This is a bit pattern.

    | Bit | Meaning |
    |:---:|---------|
    | 0 | Under-voltage detected |
    | 1 | Arm frequency capped |
    | 2 | Currently throttled |
    | 3 | Soft temperature limit active |
    | 16 | Under-voltage has occurred |
    | 17 | Arm frequency capped has occurred |
    | 18 | Throttling has occurred |
    | 19 | Soft temperature limit has occurred


    For example if I run 'stress -c 4' then get_throttled gives me:
    throttled=0xe0008

    so the temperature limit is in operation and throttling has occurred
    in the
    past.  (this Pi4 has cooling, I can't remember but I think there's a
    heatsink and fan in there)

    $ sudo vcgencmd measure_temp
    temp=84.7'C

    so it's up near its thermal limit.

    I don't see the point of letting it throttling when an inexpensive fan >>>> will keep it at full speed under any load.

    I question that it will in fact throttle.

    Like so much 'everybody knows'  when you look at it it is in fact
    'everyone believes because people selling fans told them so.

    'Everybody knows' because they have evidence, not assertions.

    The whole point of ARM is its lower power and lack of need for forced
    cooling

    Everyone's been thermally limited for maybe 15 years, it's just that Arm
    cores have traditionally targeted a lower thermal envelope in devices
    where
    forced air cooling isn't an option.  The way this works is that CPUs work >> until they hit their thermal envelope and then throttle.  No popular
    application processor for maybe a couple of decades has been able to
    power
    all the silicon at once to max performance and stay within the thermal
    budget.


    I think this thread is lacking precise, clear language, and people are
    making false comparisons. Talking about ventilated cases is confusing, I don't know what a thermal budget is.

    There are four  points:

    1) Passive cases, where the case is a heat sink,  are enough to keep a
    rPi4 below throttle temperatures, under any load, assuming ambient less
    than 35C.

    2) With no heatsink at all the rPi4 will throttle under compute
    intensive workloads.

    3) The rPi4 can perform useful day-to-day tasks without any heatsync,
    passive or forced, without throttling. I ran Motioneye, cctv, on mine
    for a couple of years before buying a case.

    4) Most of us don't use the rPi4 for continuous compute intensive tasks.

    There, that should make everyone happy :-)



    Mine runs hot because there is a TV hat bolted on top. And a SSD drive
    bolted underneath

    that pushes up the case internals way more than the Pi does
    But it is still happy and unthrottled

    --
    "Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace, community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
    "What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

    "Jeremy Corbyn?"

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