• No article

    From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/1 to All on Mon Jul 28 21:50:56 2025
    Hi, All!

    In the translation of Jules Verne's "The Voyages and Adventures of Captain Hatteras" (project Gutenberg) there are these "table" sentences:

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    Hatteras unfolded on the table one of the excellent charts published
    in 1859 by the order of the Admiralty.

    ..."Here is the chart of the Polar Seas," resumed the doctor, who had
    brought it to the table;


    ... Johnson and Bell had a good supper awaiting them.
    But before they sat down to table, the doctor said in a voice of
    triumph, as he pointed to his two companions,--
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Can you say a formal excuse why "table" in the last sentence is used without any article?

    Bye, All!
    Alexander Koryagin

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  • From Mortar M.@1:124/5016 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Jul 28 14:26:10 2025
    Re: No article
    By: Alexander Koryagin to All on Mon Jul 28 2025 21:50:56

    But before they sat down to table, the doctor said in a voice of

    1) You don't start a sentence with words like "but" and "and".
    2) It would be more appropriate to say, "But before they sat down to eat," or
    just, "But before they sat down,", implying that they were sitting down to
    dinner.
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  • From Gleb Hlebov@2:5023/24.4222 to All on Mon Aug 4 10:41:38 2025
    Hi Mortar,

    28.07.2025 18:26:10, Mortar M. wrote:

    But before they sat down to table, the doctor said in a voice of
    1) You don't start a sentence with words like "but" and "and".

    But why shouldn't I? And could it be you made up this "rule" yourself
    just now? :-)

    2) It would be more appropriate to say, "But before they sat down
    to eat," or just, "But before they sat down,", implying that
    they were sitting down to dinner.

    I can see an excuse to say "to sit down to table", the same way you
    would say "I'm back in town" or "He's back from school". Although some
    weird cases of not putting an article where it apparently should be do
    happen, like in the following sentence (it's from a police report):

    "...Robert Nastek was heading north on Olney Laytonsville
    Road when he saw Kevin Costlow beating on the hood of car
    occupied by Asian females".

    Shouldn't it be "beating on the hood of -a- car"?


    --
    "I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the
    box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it."
    -- Terry Pratchett
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  • From Karel Kral@2:423/39 to Gleb Hlebov on Thu Aug 28 08:21:19 2025
    Hello Gleb!

    04 Aug 25 10:41, you wrote to All:

    2) It would be more appropriate to say, "But before they sat
    down to eat," or just, "But before they sat down,", implying
    that they were sitting down to dinner.

    Based on discussion with Grok: ;-)

    Modern English is different from 19th-century English. In your example, the archaic phrase was retained as it was written by Jules Verne.

    Karel

    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20240209
    * Origin: Plast DATA (2:423/39)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Sat Aug 30 23:56:31 2025
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

    In the translation of Jules Verne's "The Voyages and Adventures
    of Captain Hatteras" (project Gutenberg) there are these "table"
    sentences:

    ----- Beginning of the citation -----
    Hatteras unfolded on the table one of the excellent charts
    published in 1859 by the order of the Admiralty.

    ..."Here is the chart of the Polar Seas," resumed the doctor,
    who had brought it to the table;

    ... Johnson and Bell had a good supper awaiting them.
    But before they sat down to table, the doctor said in a voice
    of triumph, as he pointed to his two companions,
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Can you say a formal excuse why "table" in the last sentence
    is used without any article?


    My OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY lists "at table" but not "to table".


    THE FREE DICTIONARY tells me how to translate "at table " & to "table" into Spanish, but offers no explanation of the sort you apparently want.


    When I look up "to" or "at", however, I find many other examples:

    to wit (i.e. "viz." or "namely")
    to arms, men!
    from north to south
    sentenced to xxx years in jail
    work from nine to five
    get to work
    add insult to injury

    at home, at school, at play
    at hand
    at cost
    at noon
    at age 65
    at boiling or freezing point
    at most


    Sometimes I can't offer a formal reason for such things. All I can do
    is to identify patterns & add examples. OTOH, you've been studying the English
    language for quite some time now... and you've heard me say that the rules many
    of us were taught in grade two don't necessarily work in higher grades. When I
    was studying French & Latin I ran into similar problems after a few years. :-Q




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/1 to Ardith Hinton on Wed Sep 3 09:32:18 2025
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 30.08.2025 23:56

    In the translation of Jules Verne's "The Voyages and Adventures of
    Captain Hatteras" (project Gutenberg) there are these "table"
    sentences:

    ----- Beginning of the citation -----
    Hatteras unfolded on the table one of the excellent charts
    published in 1859 by the order of the Admiralty.

    ..."Here is the chart of the Polar Seas," resumed the doctor, who
    had brought it to the table;

    ... Johnson and Bell had a good supper awaiting them. But before
    they sat down to table, the doctor said in a voice of triumph, as
    he pointed to his two companions,
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Can you say a formal excuse why "table" in the last sentence is
    used without any article?


    My OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY lists "at table" but not "to table".


    THE FREE DICTIONARY tells me how to translate "at table " &
    to "table" into Spanish, but offers no explanation of the sort you apparently want.

    Indeed, after some thinking I feel that "sat down at table" sounds better. Probably most of books are translated into English by people who are not Englishmen. They convey the contents well, but sometimes use prepositions as at home. ;-)

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2025

    ---
    * Origin: f1.n221.z2.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Mortar M. on Tue Sep 2 23:52:48 2025
    Hi, Mortar! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

    But before they sat down to table, the doctor said

    You don't start a sentence with words like "but" and "and".


    That wasn't allowed when I went to school... but language is a moving target & informality is widely accepted these days.



    It would be more appropriate to say, "But before they sat down
    to eat," or just, "But before they sat down,", implying that they
    were sitting down to dinner.


    IOW "sit down to dinner" is preferable to "sit down to table".

    You live in Texas? Okay, so where you're coming from it might be. I grew up in an ex-Brit neighbourhood fairly close to the 49th parallel.... :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Mortar M.@1:124/5016 to Alexander Koryagin on Wed Sep 3 11:20:36 2025
    Re: No article
    By: Alexander Koryagin to Ardith Hinton on Wed Sep 03 2025 09:32:18

    Indeed, after some thinking I feel that "sat down at table" sounds better.

    "Sat down to eat/dinner/supper" sounds more natural to me. However, you could also say, "sat down to the table". This way, you don't sound like a caveman.
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    * Origin: End Of The Line BBS - endofthelinebbs.com (1:124/5016)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Karel Kral on Thu Sep 4 23:54:12 2025
    Hi & welcome, Karel! Recently you wrote in a message to Gleb Hlebov:

    Based on discussion with Grok: ;-)

    Modern English is different from 19th-century English.


    Yes...



    In your example, the archaic phrase was retained as it
    was written by Jules Verne.


    ... and my sources agree that this material was originally written in the 19th century. They also agree that Jules Verne was French.

    The most highly respected translation seems to have been published by Osgood in 1874. IOW, I hear what you're saying & I imagine others do too. :-)




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Ardith Hinton@1:153/716 to Alexander Koryagin on Sun Sep 7 23:52:32 2025
    Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

    ... Johnson and Bell had a good supper awaiting them. But before
    they sat down to table, the doctor said in a voice of triumph,
    as he pointed to his two companions,
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Can you say a formal excuse why "table" in the last sentence is
    used without any article?

    My OXFORD CANADIAN DICTIONARY lists "at table" but not "to table".

    THE FREE DICTIONARY tells me how to translate "at table " &
    to "table" into Spanish, but offers no explanation of the sort you apparently want.

    Indeed, after a bit of thinking I feel "sat down at table"
    sounds better.


    While I don't feel strongly about either I see I should probably have included the examples offered by the latter dictionary:

    They were at table when we arrived, and (with a bit of rewording) they sat down to table... just as the translator of Verne's work evidently said in this case... but either may sound dated or "esp. UK" to some folks.



    Probably most of books are translated into English by
    people who are not Englishmen. They convey the contents
    well, but sometimes use prepositions as at home. ;-)


    Does the Gutenberg edition you're using provide any information about who the translator was or about when & where s/he lived?

    According to the Vancouver Public Library's summary of this book, the captain was British & the edition they offer was published by Oxford University Press. While I know nothing about the translator, apart from his name, I trust the Oxford University Press to know how the English language is (or was) spoken in their own country at the time of publication. VPL users are also invited to share their perception of the library's offerings, and I see that in one review of another novel by Jules Verne the writer spoke highly of a Penguin edition in which the translator was named & made a point of saying he much preferred it to an alternative in which the translator was not named.

    Many people nowadays try to dummify or modernize or sanitize various classics in English, but when they do the original flavour is often lost. :-))




    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/1 to Ardith Hinton on Mon Sep 8 15:56:44 2025
    Hi, Ardith Hinton!
    I read your message from 30.08.2025 23:56


    Probably most of books are translated into English by people who
    are not Englishmen. They convey the contents well, but sometimes
    use prepositions as at home. ;-)


    Does the Gutenberg edition you're using provide any information
    about who the translator was or about when & where s/he lived?

    According to the Vancouver Public Library's summary of this book,
    the captain was British & the edition they offer was published by
    Oxford University Press. While I know nothing about the translator,
    apart from his name, I trust the Oxford University Press to know
    how the English language is (or was) spoken in their own country at
    the time of publication. VPL users are also invited to share their perception of the library's offerings, and I see that in one review
    of another novel by Jules Verne the writer spoke highly of a
    Penguin edition in which the translator was named & made a point of
    saying he much preferred it to an alternative in which the
    translator was not named.

    Many people nowadays try to dummify or modernize or sanitize
    various classics in English, but when they do the original flavour
    is often lost. :-))

    It seems the translator was not important to mention him. ;-) Or I missed it? But the artist who made the pictures was clearly mentioned.

    -----Beginning of the citation-----
    The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Voyages and Adventures of Captain
    Hatteras, by Jules Verne

    This eBook is for the use of anyone anywhere at no cost and with
    almost no restrictions whatsoever. You may copy it, give it away or
    re-use it under the terms of the Project Gutenberg License included
    with this eBook or online at www.gutenberg.net

    Title: The Voyages and Adventures of Captain Hatteras

    Author: Jules Verne

    Illustrator: Гdouard Riou

    Release Date: July 15, 2009 [EBook #29413]

    Language: English

    Character set encoding: ASCII

    *** START OF THIS PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK VOYAGES OF CAPTAIN HATTERAS ***

    Produced by Ron Swanson (This file was produced from images
    generously made available by The Internet Archive/American
    Libraries)

    CAPTAIN HATTERAS.

    [Illustration]

    JULES VERNE.

    [Frontispiece: "The brig was tossed about like a child's toy."--Page
    134.]

    THE VOYAGES AND ADVENTURES OF CAPTAIN HATTERAS.

    TRANSLATED FROM THE FRENCH OF JULES VERNE.

    _WITH TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY ILLUSTRATIONS BY RIOU_.

    BOSTON: JAMES R. OSGOOD AND COMPANY,
    LATE TICKNOR & FIELDS, AND FIELDS, OSGOOD, & CO.
    1876.

    COPYRIGHT, 1874.
    BY JAMES R. OSGOOD & CO.

    UNIVERSITY PRESS: WELCH, BIGELOW, & CO., CAMBRIDGE.

    CONTENTS.
    ----- The end of the citation -----

    Bye, Ardith!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2025

    ---
    * Origin: f1.n221.z2.fidonet.fi (2:221/1.0)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Sep 8 10:43:43 2025
    Hi, Alexander -- on Sep 08 2025 at 15:56, you wrote:


    COPYRIGHT, 1874.
    BY JAMES R. OSGOOD & CO.

    UNIVERSITY PRESS: WELCH, BIGELOW, & CO., CAMBRIDGE.

    According to Wikipedia, Osgood was the translator. It does, however, say "These translations [referring to 4 versions listed above this text] compress and truncate Verne's text to varying degrees; the Osgood translation is considered to be of 'relatively good quality'(7). Editions from other publishers are generally based on one of these four translations."
    http://jv.gilead.org.il/evans/VerneTrans(biblio).html
    The (7) refers to "A Bibliography of Jules Verne's English Translations". http://jv.gilead.org.il/evans/VerneTrans(biblio).html

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Sep 8 15:55:53 2025
    Hi, Alexander -- on Sep 08 2025 at 15:56, you wrote:

    The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Voyages and Adventures of Captain Hatteras, by Jules Verne

    I might just add that I'm somewhat irritated that all the translations (except for the 2005 which I haven't checked) seem to be "condensed" in some form.

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Dallas Hinton@1:153/7715 to Alexander Koryagin on Mon Sep 8 16:00:44 2025
    Hi, Alexander -- on Sep 08 2025 at 15:56, you wrote:

    BOSTON: JAMES R. OSGOOD AND COMPANY,
    LATE TICKNOR & FIELDS, AND FIELDS, OSGOOD, & CO.
    1876.

    Further to my last comment, the 2005 edition is apparently translated by William Butcher (about whom I know nothing), but says "This new translation by the father of Verne Studies brilliantly conveys the hypnotic mood and gripping authenticity of Verne's second novel. This edition also includes the original, censored ending, previously unpublished chapters, and evidence of Verne's plagiarism."
    (Amazon Books, summary)

    Cheers... Dallas

    --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
    * Origin: The BandMaster, Vancouver, CANADA (1:153/7715)
  • From Alexander Koryagin@2:221/1 to Dallas Hinton on Tue Sep 9 10:03:00 2025
    Hi, Dallas Hinton!
    I read your message from 08.09.2025 15:55


    The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Voyages and Adventures
    of Captain Hatteras, by Jules Verne

    I might just add that I'm somewhat irritated that all the
    translations (except for the 2005 which I haven't checked)
    seem to be "condensed" in some form.

    I remembered a USSR movie about the Civil war in Russia after the 1917 Revolution. It is not not connected to Verne directly, but however made me smile. A prison guard guards an arrested person and reads some book. The latter asks him, "Are you reading? "I am reading 'The Capital', by Karl Marx." "Wow, interesting?" "Yes, the cramp things I skip, but the proletarian gist I view." ;-)

    Bye, Dallas!
    Alexander Koryagin
    english_tutor 2025

    ---
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